Secular culture, in the world but not of it.

[keiboman]

How far are we supposed to go in removing ourselves from secular culture? A very popular opinion, it seems, is entirely. I have a lot of Christian friends who listen to no secular music, watch no movies, etc. I don't think this is a good idea. How are we supposed to witness to people we have nothing in common with? As a youth worker, I think it's important to understand where my kids are coming from, and be able to connect and participate in their discussions about the music they listen to, and the movies they see. So I listen to punk, rap, and anything else I think will be useful. I'm not so pretentious as to say it's a completely selfless act, I enjoy the music, and still realize that discretion is necessary, no matter what we do.

Let me know what you think

[Ely]

hello. i am 19. i have listend to all different kinds of music. i like most of them. . . . but what my point is is that it has to be up to you and god about that stuff. i personally stay away from it as much as possible(secular stuff) because i get sucked in. one second i am listening to something harmless like pink floyd and the next thing i know i am listening to cradle of filth.(extremely satanic band) as i said before it is different with everyone and that is where i am at.:) thanx for reading!!!!!

[keiboman]

I really don't mean to be argumentative, but just to state a point, I think a lot fewer things are subject to interpretation and conviction than we would like to believe. The Bible is full of standards "honor your mother and father" "do nothing that would cause you brother to stumble: and things like that.

Just a thought...

[Jesus Fish <><]

I personally think that yes, we are to have certain things in common w/ the people around us, we can't just stick to our Christian friends, because we won't have any witness at all. But I don't think it is right to lower our standards in order to become a witness. Christ never did anything wrong just so he could "fit in" and be a better witness to unbelievers. Here's a good question: If an unbeleiver doesn't see anything different in our lives apart from just the way we talk, if we don't act and do things differently than the world, then what would make them want to come to Christ? Especially if they are a "pretty good" person in the first place, for instance, they dont' do drugs, no sex out of marriage, no drinking, but they still listen to this music and watch movies that we beleive are wrong, and they see us doing the same thing? They would say, "He's just like me, why do i need to have Christ?" There isn't much of a difference. Anyhoo, just a thought. Any other thoughts welcome, and though i didn't put any, scripture verses are always good :) Thanks,

[SnapCase]

I think this would fit more into the evangelism forum.

[Bryan]

I think when the secular stuff you partake in starts to affect your thoughts and you begin to shift your focus from God to something else is when you have crossed the line.

[Nate]

I don't have anything to add to the discussion... I just wanted to say that your sig is awesome, keiboman! :D

[OnEaglesWings]

I think that some secular stuff can be interpreted to be really helpful in our faith journey...but I also think you have to be careful and not over-rationalize, because you always have to remember that God wants us to be complely pure, not, for example, looking at pronaography so we can sympathize with people who are addicted to it...I don't know, but I always end up thinking "oh, well, it's not THAT bad of a movie/song/fillintheblank cause of this one statement that could be bad but if you look at it this way it almost encourages good stuff..."

[RunningOnEmpty]

Man, I have some pretty big issues with this whole idea...meaning, I've struggled to understand where my theology becomes practical in terms of the places I go, people I see, things I do. But the truth is, when my private worship and my "heart" is lived in the Spirit and I am listening expectantly to hear His voice (which, I must admit, is NOT all the time) - anyway, when I am choosing to follow His leading in other areas of my life, this area just falls into place. I still listen to some secular music and watch secular films and do things with "unsaved" friends, but I JUST KNOW when the things I do could lead me to temptation and I get out of the situation.

I sure do hate that phrase "I just know". It reminds me of what everyone says about finding "THE ONE" ..... You'll just know(yuck!)

[studentofGod]

I agree with keiboman...it's necessary to understand and relate to those you help. I can't speak from experience, though. I'm into a lot of secular stuff...as is my entire family (I've gotta fit in somehow!). Anyway...my best friend of a little over a year now and I talk a lot about this kind of stuff. See, because I'm so "secular" I've helped her while she helped me. She helped me find Christ, and I helped her get out of her 'box' that she was trapped in. She's very grateful. I'm just glad I could help her at all...especially after what she had done for me. Anyway...I know so many people who know about secular stuff and don't completely avoid it, but they are the coolest, nicest people I know...and they're also the most faithful people I know. I don't think secluding yourself completely from secular culture is good.

[OnEaglesWings]

I agree with studentofgod...as long as you remember that you are looking at the secualr culture from a Christian point of view...not the other way around.

[keiboman]

It seems most people are feeling the same way I am. Maybe I was taken a little out of context: I don't think pornography is EVER acceptable, as with a whole truckload of other things considered secular. I just think it's so easy to, as was said earlier, to get in a little "christian box" and forget what our world is like. I think this is nothing less than disobedient. If you arent' actively pursuing souls, in a Christ like way, of course, that's disobedience, and so I think it becomes necessary to at least know what's going on in the world. For instance, how can you tell someone that seeing Harry Potter is evil and straight from the Devil, when all you know about it is that your aunt Agnes heard from one of the ladies in her prayer group that they eat each other's souls in the movie. I'm not saying we should all purchase the books and board games but, do you see what I'm saying? It might be an excellent way to teach about the perils of witchcraft, but you really have to know what you are talking about, becuase the kids do. It does take a certain level of maturity to involve yourself in those kinds o fthings, but no more, I think, than it does to disciple someone, so there ya go... But, for arguments sake, what about where the Bible talks about not doing things that cause your brother to sin? Obviously things like secular music can cause some people to sin (it did for me a while back), so with that in mind, where do you stand?

[Chrysostom]

Be in the world and not of it. Therefore, do as Jesus did and walk amongst the lost to save them. However, do not bend to the pleasures and desires of the world.

For instance, i don't own any secular music (and have a select choice of Christian music) because it is a "pleasure of this world" which could be spiritually edifying to me (which *some* Christian music is).

[Adam]

One of the beauties of Christianity is this. We can be lights to the world, but not of it, because we are God's people. Removing yourself from the world, that is, by divorcing yourself entirely from the culture, is a sin. It is disobeying God's command to acknowledge Jesus' Lordship over every area of life, and disobeying His command to establish dominion over all the earth. It is also disobeying His Great Commission He gave us.

This is why we have lost our foothold today in culture. We have not done as we ought. We became lazy as Christians and we lost our hold on not only the intellectual spheres of society, but also in every aspect of culture. Christianity has no longer become a life-system. It is merely a "religion" that someone can adhere to in their spiritual life or "personal time".

It is no longer taken seriously among pagan philosophers, scientists, and others. It has become a laughing stock, "irrelevant", and insignificant.

That is changing now, with the rise of victory minded Christians, and the significant work of Christian philosophers such as William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantiga, as well as Cornelius Van Til. But we still have a long way to go.

It's Christianity all the time, in all areas of society and thought, or it isn't Christianity.

[Chrysostom]

Philosopher:
>>It is disobeying God's command to acknowledge Jesus' Lordship over every area of life<<

Did you mean this? i assume it was a typo...

>>This is why we have lost our foothold today in culture. We have not done as we ought. We became lazy as Christians and we lost our hold on not only the intellectual spheres of society, but also in every aspect of culture. Christianity has no longer become a life-system. It is merely a "religion" that someone can adhere to in their spiritual life or "personal time".<<

i think that the main problem is that we lack true Christians. Instead we have people who follow some laws set up, such as morals and going to church. We must only know Jesus, and all else stems from that. The modern church is teaching it backwards, as they teach that knowing Jesus is a by-product of morality and going to church and\or church functions. Instead, we should realize that morality and the like are by-products of knowing Jesus!!

The day that a pagan stops looking at Christians and starts looking at Christ is the day that person begins understanding.

[sheep]

really wish my ethics professor would read this.

my school is really big on discipleship, and i took a class of "Lifestlye Evangelism and Discipleship". key word there is "lifestyle." we learned that we need to relate to people on their level. i mean, if we go to the lost and discuss things like appologetics and predestination we're gonna lose them. that's just common sense.

and yet here's the debate. did Paul fail in his preaching about the statue to the unknown God in Acts 17? it doesnt say that anyone came to know Christ there, that the philosophers went away and discussed what had happened there. in my evangelism class, we took it as an example of "using what you know." but my ethics prof said that paul failed in his attempt there. but do we know if seeds were planted or not? also, this was an attempt by paul where we know he stepped on some feet and yet no one threatened to kill him. so i think that that was a success in itself.

my ethics teacher said that we shouldnt even be in the world, that Christians should be a whole separate culture from the rest of the world. ok, right... how can you save the lost if you never dwell among them and shine your light? you cant just be the city on a hill, you've got to be the lampstand in the house.

i listen to secular music too... but i try to not listen to things that will contridict my morals.

anywho... gotta go to church.

[JungleJonDOC]

Originally posted by sheep
really wish my ethics professor would read this.

i listen to secular music too... but i try to not listen to things that will contridict my morals.

I don't want to change the subject, but read Romans 12:1-2. God told me in a crazy way to stop listening to secular music, and I know that christians probably shouldn't. make sure you are glorifying God in everything you do all the time. not just some times. does secular music glorify God? Would Jesus listen to secular music (1 John 2:6)? I can't bring myself to say that. I used to listen to secular music that had nothing wrong with it. but did it glorify God? not really. we shouldn't ask what's wrong with secular music, but what is good about it? how does it bring us closer to God? like, um, it doesn't.

[Adam]

Yes, Jesus would listen to secular music. He would probably praise some of the talent put into it (something not seen in Christian music) but more importantly would view the philosophy of secular music through Christian eyes.

Listening to secular music can glorify God because we can recognize the talent put into it and critique it through a distinctly Christian philosophy.

This is why our culture is so stagnant today. Ever since Christians have withdrew from culture, culture has gone downhill and has worshipped the creation rather than the Creator. We as Christians should make every attempt to key in on our cultural surroundings. This is part of taking dominion for Christ and carrying out His Great Commision. Not doing so is sin.

[JungleJonDOC]

How exactly does human talent glorify God? And if it does, secular music uses talent in a way that does not glorify God. Talent is fine, but you have to watch how you use it. A murderer may be very talented at killing, but that does not mean we should watch him and see how his skill glorifies God.

I fail to see how me listening to secular music will bring people to Christ. I don't see how doing worldly things will make me a better witness. Faith in God and trusting in Him will alone make Christians powerful tools. I don't see how not listening to secular music makes me a less capable christian. We are to be mature in the ways of christ, but in the knowledge of the world be babies.

Hey! I like some kinds of christian music. And christian artists are just as talented as secular ones. Phil Keaggy was one of the best guitar players ever, and he was a christian. Shane barnard is a great guitar player. gosh dude.

[Chrysostom]

Philosopher:
>>Listening to secular music can glorify God because we can recognize the talent put into it and critique it through a distinctly Christian philosophy.<<

Music is one thing i disagree on here. The question comes at this--what is music? Music is simply taking a thought and putting it on an instrument (vocal or otherwise). The thought behind most all secular and even much "Christian" music is not glorifying to God. i once held on to my secular music as hard as i could, but God just flat-out said "NO." Then, i kept telling Him i would throw them away soon. What did He do? My CD player and CDs were all stolen on the plane to mission trip and few summers ago. Guess He showed me, eh?

Music is about a thought. You take that thought and put it into words. Next, you take those words and form a song. This song, in its purest form, is a thought. Therefore, i listen to music highly edifying to me spiritually, as all thoughts i want to enter my mind i want to be pure and holy, edifying to the Lord. Therefore, i listen to select music (and not just anything off the "Christian" rack, either) which glorifies God.

[Bryan]

I am a musician, God has given me this gift. And for me not to develop it, I believe, is wrong. One way I do this is by listening to secular artists and practicing the songs they do. I stay away from satanic music or songs about sex and the like.

And for a Christian who has a talent with music and especially with song writing has an excellent avenue for witnessing. A christian artist could write secular music to attract unbelievers to a concert then while there sing a "Christian" song. Or just walking the walk and being open and even vocal about your faith can have a big impact on unbelievers. Or let's say you have a friend who has does not follow Christ. And you are listening to music and he says he likes this type of music. Let him hear this type of music with lyrics that are centered on God. Most often these subtle ways of witnessing are more effective than bible beatin standin on a corner preachin. I have seen it. I have done it. I never just go up to some one and say "Do you believe in God? Why not? etc" giving someone the spanish inquisition is not the way to show them to Christ.

I was flying home one night and was sitting next to some one who was reading about mormonism. I asked her if she was mormon and she said "no". A friend of hers was and had given her this book along with the book of morman. I asked her what she thought about it and we basically had a conversation about what I believed and about Christianity and what not.

I take "being in the world and not of it" to mean use the secular avenues that are not clearly sinful (ie. no porn, drugs, fornication) and find something in common you have with an unbeliever. Talk about music, the movies, things like that.

[Adam]

How exactly does human talent glorify God? And if it does, secular music uses talent in a way that does not glorify God. Talent is fine, but you have to watch how you use it. A murderer may be very talented at killing, but that does not mean we should watch him and see how his skill glorifies God.

Of course, I competely agree. But is it a sin to enjoy the toil and beauty one has put into a piece of music or art? Murder is a sin, on the other hand, and naturally Christians should condemn it. But enjoying the skills and gifts God has even bestowed on a pagan is not a sin.