have you ever really wondered

[phil_has_friend]

crimson large

Hey,

I heard this poem the other day, a poem about wondering about god:

Have you ever wondered when you talk to your friends if he is there
Have you ever wondered when you are playing basketball if he is there
Have you ever wondered what eternity really is.
I have wondered, asked, i know.. yes, yes, its forever and ever and ever. happiness, joy, no crying, no dieing.


sometimes living forever scares me, but i think about my friends and forever with the guy that created me.... Now what do you think

Phil

[+Donny]

u would think eternity with anything would get boring, but Not God, INFINITE wisdom to teach us

[Corty]

hmm, i think its beyond me to think about.

[MrCrabby]

Yeah......Oww!!! Brain cramp!

[+Donny]

OUCH!

[phil_has_friend]

You would think eterntiy as scary b/c it doesnt end you know





Phil

[+Donny]

okay

[JerryLove]

So if eternity with God isn't boaring, why did he make people in the first place? I thought he was bored. I also have to wonder why Adam and Eve were in a garden rather than heaven.

[MrCrabby]

Jerry: i think those are things that we won't know until the end.
But....if anyone thinks they know the answers....go ahead!

[phil_has_friend]

think about it this way though,,, there is gonna be billions and billions there,,, so how can it be boreing??

[CanadianChick]

Originally posted by JerryLove
So if eternity with God isn't boaring, why did he make people in the first place? I thought he was bored. I also have to wonder why Adam and Eve were in a garden rather than heaven.

I wouldn't get into a debate on the big scary Apologetics forum if my life depended on it!

But I just would like to say that the theory that God's creation of people sprang from boredom or loneliness is absurd. Does God need people to fulfill a void in him? God is not dependant on us for our assistance in any area. He doesn't need our help. I was taught this "God was lonely" theory in Sunday School and it drove me up the wall. No way, Jose! God is complete and self-sufficient.

[Cadence]

How could you get bored with everlasting joy and love? We will experience these things in thier fullness. They won't be spure of the moment type things they wil be constant.

Think about the most intimate time you've had worshipping God. It will be like that forever but WAY more than you can imagine. But that moment would be a good starting point at getting an idea of heaven.

[RunningOnEmpty]

ditto paradigm! Heaven is gonna be an adventure of exploring and knowing God in His fullness. Forget about clouds and chubby angels with harps. Just dare to imagine how good it could possibly be and then realize it is SO MUCH MORE than we could ever come close to imagining!!!

[Karen M]

Hello Canadian :)

>>>But I just would like to say that the theory that God's creation of people sprang from boredom or loneliness is absurd. Does God need people to fulfill a void in him? God is not dependant on us for our assistance in any area. He doesn't need our help. I was taught this "God was lonely" theory in Sunday School and it drove me up the wall. No way, Jose! God is complete and self-sufficient.<<<

If God is absolutly complete, self-sufficent, and doesn't have any personal needs for people, why did he create people? He can not be bored or sad or lonely or needy according to your above statement, correct? :)

[Travis]

Hi Karen:)

Originally posted by Karen M
If God is absolutly complete, self-sufficent, and doesn't have any personal needs for people, why did he create people? He can not be bored or sad or lonely or needy according to your above statement, correct? :)

To bring glory to himself and show his power. He is God, after all, and he deserves it.

[Karen M]

Hello Pleasure :)


>>>To bring glory to himself and show his power. He is God, after all, and he deserves it.<<<


He is perfect. He needs nothing. Why would he need us to give him glory? Why would he NEED glory? Why would he WANT glory? He has no wants(you are responding in the place of Canadian's claim remember). :)

[Superman]

I fail to see how wanting love makes you imperfect... In essence, that's the trap youve set. Trying to get us to say God is imperfect (and therefore the Bible a liar) by saying desire = imperfection. No matter what topic we start, you always bring it to "Is God perfect?"

You view of perfection is imperfect... ;)

[Cadence]

Originally posted by Karen M
Why would he WANT glory? He has no wants(you are responding in the place of Canadian's claim remember). :) Fine. You could say then that He wills that He gets all the glory. You can be perfect and still have a will.

[Karen M]

Hello super and para :)


>>>I fail to see how wanting love makes you imperfect... In essence, that's the trap youve set. Trying to get us to say God is imperfect (and therefore the Bible a liar) by saying desire = imperfection.<<<

No, Canadian suggested that and I took it to its conclusion.


>>>Fine. You could say then that He wills that He gets all the glory. You can be perfect and still have a will.<<<

Why does he will to have glory? :)

[Cadence]

Originally posted by Karen M
Why does he will to have glory? :) Because He deserves it. It's beyond need or want, it's what SHOULD happen.

[Travis]

Hi Karen:)

Originally posted by Karen M
He is perfect. He needs nothing.

I agree.

Originally posted by Karen M
Why would he need us to give him glory? Why would he NEED glory?

He doesn't.

Originally posted by Karen M
Why would he WANT glory?

I am not sure. He has glory, but he has chosen to glorify himself through us and to us for some reason. That is his decision. We cannot even fathom his reasons or his ways.

Originally posted by Karen M
He has no wants(you are responding in the place of Canadian's claim remember). :)

He has all, so that is right he has no "wants." However he still chooses to do things and this is one of the things that he chooses to do for an reason unknown to us.

[Cadence]

Karen, when you WANT something or WILL for soemthing, is it ALWAYS out of a lack of something?

[Karen M]

Thanks for the responses all. :)


I think we are going of into the "can't fathom the mind of God" catigory so I'll go ahead and leave this before it becomes too circular ;)


I'm just going to answer this one:

>>>Karen, when you WANT something or WILL for soemthing, is it ALWAYS out of a lack of something?<<<

Pretty much. Can you think of a want or a need that isn't modivated by a lack of the wanted object, skill, or service in question?

[RunningOnEmpty]

um, I always want chocolate even though I have all I could ever need...:D definately not lacking there!

[Karen M]

>>>um, I always want chocolate even though I have all I could ever need... definately not lacking there!<<<

hmm...now I want chocolate and I don't have nearly enough... ;) Alas...back to cellary...:p

[Cadence]

Originally posted by Karen M
Pretty much. Can you think of a want or a need that isn't modivated by a lack of the wanted object, skill, or service in question? Yes...there are many. Most hings that I want are luxuries. I don't NEED them to sustain me or fulfill me. My car, my guitar, my dog, my computer, my cell phone, my stereo, my bed, my really nice clothes, my tv's etc... I dont NEED these things, they are all simply wants.

My point is that God didn't have to NEED something to want it.

[Karen M]

>>>Yes...there are many. Most hings that I want are luxuries. I don't NEED them to sustain me or fulfill me. My car, my guitar, my dog, my computer, my cell phone, my stereo, my bed, my really nice clothes, my tv's etc... I dont NEED these things, they are all simply wants.

My point is that God didn't have to NEED something to want it.<<<

I wasn't talking about the difference between needs and wants; I was talking about wants period. Why would God WANT for anything which he doesn't have? He is perfect so he would have everything, correct? :)

[RunningOnEmpty]

Um, he could . Except then we'd be robots and that's not what he wants. He wants us to want Him, not because we were forced to, but because we find Him irresistable.

[RunningOnEmpty]

sorry, paradigm. Didn't mean to jump in! ;)

[Cadence]

Originally posted by Karen M
I wasn't talking about the difference between needs and wants; I was talking about wants period. Why would God WANT for anything which he doesn't have? He is perfect so he would have everything, correct? :) What you are saying is that if God wants something then He's lacking something right?

[Karen M]

Hello again RoE and para :)


>>>Um, he could . Except then we'd be robots and that's not what he wants. He wants us to want Him, not because we were forced to, but because we find Him irresistable.<<<

Thanks, I understand that part now :) The problem was that I think free will contradicts cause and effect. Also, though I am not a Christian, I have to admit that I think the Bible really does lean more towards Calvinism than Free Will :(


>>>What you are saying is that if God wants something then He's lacking something right?<<<

Yes. Perfection would be a lack of wants and needs. But, of course, that definition comes from my faulty human brain right? ;) I hate to say it, but I think this line of conversation has also tappered off into the fraility of human knowledge and "can't comprehend God" now too...

I am therefore going to propose a new method: How about we go on "seems like" rather than "is"? :) I would then say that Perfection seems like a lack of wants and needs. And it seems like if God wants something then he is lacking something. That would get us off the annoying dead end of "it only seems that way to the frail human mind" line. :D


That make sense?

Karen

[Travis]

Hey Karen:)

Originally posted by Karen M
Also, though I am not a Christian, I have to admit that I think the Bible really does lean more towards Calvinism than Free Will :(

I agree. And the fact that we perhaps would like free will better is, of course, irrelevent.

Originally posted by Karen M
I am therefore going to propose a new method: How about we go on "seems like" rather than "is"? :) I would then say that Perfection seems like a lack of wants and needs. And it seems like if God wants something then he is lacking something:(

I don't necessarily think so. Like someone said earlier, even if someone had all the chocolate that could possibly be eaten and then some they still will want to eat chocolate- even though they don't need it and have all they could want.

[Cadence]

Originally posted by Karen M
Yes. Perfection would be a lack of wants and needs.

And it seems like if God wants something then he is lacking something. I explained earlier that wants aren't always needs...while I am not perfect and have needs, almost ALL of my wants are not necissary to my exsistance.

Also, doesn't the state of perfection consist of things? What if God's perfection was based on being a creator?

[Karen M]

Hello again :)


>>>I don't necessarily think so. Like someone said earlier, even if someone had all the chocolate that could possibly be eaten and then some they still will want to eat chocolate- even though they don't need it and have all they could want.<<<

hehe, Pleasure, that was a cutie post, not a serious post :)

You would no longer want chocolate once there was already chocolate in your mouth or once your stomach was full :p


>>>I explained earlier that wants aren't always needs...while I am not perfect and have needs, almost ALL of my wants are not necissary to my exsistance.<<<

I already said that wants aren't always needs. Thats why I specificly put "a lack of wants AND needs" in my definition. :)


>>>Also, doesn't the state of perfection consist of things? What if God's perfection was based on being a creator?<<<

So if you create something you are perfect? Perhaps thats a start, but if you want to try for a new definition of God's pefection I think you will probably have to be more specific... :(


later,

Karen

[Cadence]

Originally posted by Karen M

So if you create something you are perfect? Perhaps thats a start, but if you want to try for a new definition of God's pefection I think you will probably have to be more specific... :(What I'm trying to say is that maybe nothing can just BE perfect but maybe perfection entails being a creator, a savior, a miracle worker etc... Make sense?

[timberwolf_s]

ever build lego models as a kid? did you build them out of boredom? probably not. did you have a need to build them? no. so why did you? i did because i felt like it brought me a little bit of glory, made me feel good and happy. it's one of the reasons i write short stories. it's one of the reasons i play guitar. judging from his creation, god is obviously very creative. maybe he just really enjoys creating things. then again, i think about dying for my lego models, and i get blown away...

i'm really scared of this forum, so if somebody tries to argue against this, i probably won't reply.:) i'll just consider it a loss and stay quiet.:)

[TruthWarrior]

Originally posted by timberwolf_s
ever build lego models as a kid? did you build them out of boredom? probably not. did you have a need to build them? no. so why did you? i did because i felt like it brought me a little bit of glory, made me feel good and happy. it's one of the reasons i write short stories. it's one of the reasons i play guitar. judging from his creation, god is obviously very creative. maybe he just really enjoys creating things. then again, i think about dying for my lego models, and i get blown away...

i'm really scared of this forum, so if somebody tries to argue against this, i probably won't reply.:) i'll just consider it a loss and stay quiet.:)


that's a very good answer....

i'd say that it's God nature to love....just like a light bulb gives of light....that's not a perfect analogy because God is not mechanical...but i hope u get my point.

[Superman]

Exactly.

Why do some people want children?

Do they really need them?

Are they less of a better person without them?

Would your lungs cave in and your oxygen be cut off if no one loved you?

Medically speaking, of course not. Lack of love is not equal to lack of food or water or air.

But people want to love, and in turn want the love back. That's an attribute given from the Father. Why? Because He feels the same. He wants to nurture just like any other parent. And when you give of yourself like that, shouldn't you expect reciprocation? Wouldn't your feelings be hurt if it wasn't?

Being a father, I love my little boy, but I can't make him love me back. If I could program him to do so, I'd know in my heart that's like cheating, and it isn't real. It's the same with a girlfriend/boyfriend.

Do they love you because they love you, or because they have no alternative?

[RunningOnEmpty]

Man, it's good to have a daddy's input! Thanks Superman :)

(when I say, "Thanks Superman", I feel like Lois Lane. Is that a natural reaction? :D )

[Superman]

Only if youre Terri Hatcher... ;)

[Karen M]

Hello again All :)


Para:

>>>What I'm trying to say is that maybe nothing can just BE perfect but maybe perfection entails being a creator, a savior, a miracle worker etc... Make sense?<<<

So for something to be perfect it must be a creator?



Timber:

>>>ever build lego models as a kid? did you build them out of boredom? probably not. did you have a need to build them? no. so why did you? i did because i felt like it brought me a little bit of glory, made me feel good and happy.<<<

Exactly. You wanted happiness. If perfection is a lack of wants, God should already be perfectly happy, correct? :)



TW:

>>>i'd say that it's God nature to love....just like a light bulb gives of light....that's not a perfect analogy because God is not mechanical...but i hope u get my point.<<<

This one makes sense :) So long as you are separating his nature from his perfection.



>>>Why do some people want children?<<<

love, they like kids, etc. It is still a want


>>>Do they really need them?<<<

Needs are different than wants.


>>>Are they less of a better person without them?<<<

No.


>>>Would your lungs cave in and your oxygen be cut off if no one loved you?<<<

No.


>>>Medically speaking, of course not. Lack of love is not equal to lack of food or water or air.<<<

Exactly, it is a want, not a need. Perfection was defined as a lack of needs AND wants, remember? ;) On the other hand, if you wish to have a different definition of perfection you can to help Para who is also trying to find one.


>>>But people want to love, and in turn want the love back. That's an attribute given from the Father. Why? Because He feels the same. He wants to nurture just like any other parent. And when you give of yourself like that, shouldn't you expect reciprocation? Wouldn't your feelings be hurt if it wasn't?<<<

What does this have to do with God's supposed perfection?


>>>Being a father, I love my little boy, but I can't make him love me back. If I could program him to do so, I'd know in my heart that's like cheating, and it isn't real. It's the same with a girlfriend/boyfriend.

Do they love you because they love you, or because they have no alternative?<<<

You do program him to like you or dislike you. That is what upbringing is. The difference is that you do not have the power to control all his influences and perfectly program him.

And, again, what does this have to do with why God would want something? :)


Have a nice day,

Karen

[RunningOnEmpty]

Ha! LOL :D !

Nope, Superman. The truth comes out. I am not Terri Hatcher... but I think most girls at one time or another wanted to be Lois Lane so I was kinda having a moment! ;)

[TruthWarrior]

Originally posted by Karen M
Exactly, it is a want, not a need. Perfection was defined as a lack of needs AND wants, remember? On the other hand, if you wish to have a different definition of perfection you can to help Para who is also trying to find one.

IF perfiection is a lack of needs and wants, then robots, rocks, and stars are perfect. Absurd.

U'll need to clarify that...

[TruthWarrior]

Originally posted by Karen M
Hello again All :

TW:

>>>i'd say that it's God nature to love....just like a light bulb gives of light....that's not a perfect analogy because God is not mechanical...but i hope u get my point.<<<

This one makes sense :) So long as you are separating his nature from his perfection.

Clear something of for me....What is your definition of a deity?

[Karen M]

>>>IF perfiection is a lack of needs and wants, then robots, rocks, and stars are perfect. Absurd.

U'll need to clarify that...<<<

Robots, rocks, and stars are emotionally perfect. It is a part of perfection, though I do not think anyone would actually want to acheive this state(exept maybe Spock ;) ).


>>>Clear something of for me....What is your definition of a deity?<<<

A being found in religions that is considered far superior to humans and is usually worshipped.

[Cadence]

Originally posted by Karen M
So for something to be perfect it must be a creator?I said "maybe". My point was the fact that perfection probably has to ENTAIL something. LIke the epitomy of something.

[Faith]

Jesus, the Creator is the Standard. Perfection is relative to the standard of perfection. Karen, how are rocks and robots perfect? Rocks and stars are not made in the image of God, they can never achieve perfection (righteousness).

[Karen M]

>>>Karen, how are rocks and robots perfect?<<<

I said emotionally perfect, not complete perfection. :)


>>>Rocks and stars are not made in the image of God, they can never achieve perfection (righteousness).<<<

So now we define perfection as "whatever the Christian deity is?" Therefore, by saying your deity is "perfect," you are really saying that "the Christian diety is exactly like the Christian diety?" ;)

[Faith]

what is emotional perfection, karen?

as I said before, Jesus Christ is the Standard of perfection. Yes, as you put it, perfection is whatever the Christian deity is. He happens to be the triune God and He is Righteousness. I don't understand this line-

"Therefore, by saying your deity is "perfect", you are really saying that "the Christian deity is exactly like the Christian deity?"

Could you explain what you mean?

[Karen M]

Hello again Faith :)


>>>what is emotional perfection, karen?<<<

A lack of needs and wants.


>>>as I said before, Jesus Christ is the Standard of perfection. Yes, as you put it, perfection is whatever the Christian deity is. He happens to be the triune God and He is Righteousness. I don't understand this line-

"Therefore, by saying your deity is "perfect", you are really saying that "the Christian deity is exactly like the Christian deity?"

Could you explain what you mean?<<<

You have defined perfect as "whatever the Christian deity is." Therefore, when you say that the Christian diety is "perfect," you are saying that "the Christian diety is exacly like the Christian diety."

I am basically saying that, though you definition of perfect would, of course, encompass your diety, it is a circular definition. :(


I hope thats more clear :)

Karen

[Faith]

Yes, I admit my circular reasoning. I believe Jesus is righteouss because the Bible says so. How do I know the Bible is true? Because it says it is. Yes, it's a circle. But, it is a circle outside of my own reality. It is based upon something other than my own mind. A reality outside of myself.

Karen, where do you get this idea that emotional perfection is a lack of wants and needs?

[JerryLove]

I believe Jesus is righteouss because the Bible says so. Her point is that you belive Jesus (God) to be rightious because you *define* rightous as "what God is". It's called a truism. You make your definitions support your claim.

I don't believe there is a "perfect"; and if one *can* be argued, I'm going to side with Karen and say that perfection is "absolute purity", therefore a perfect emotion would be one with no other emotions to dilude it.

[Faith]

I don't define Jesus as righteous- the Bible does. I still hold to this: Jesus is the Standard for righteousness in all aspects- emotional, spiritual, and physical- you can't separate them.

Psalm 18:30 As for God, His way is perfect; the word of the Lord is proven; He is a shield to all who trust in Him.

Hebrews 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, purge your concsience from dead worksto serve the living God?

So, you believe that perfection is absolute purity because...why? You and Karen decide it's that way? What are you basing your standard for truth on? Your own mind?

[JerryLove]

I don't define Jesus as righteous- the Bible does. Yes the Bible does, but that is also the definition you hold (tell me if it is not) so yes, you do define righteous as "like Jesus".

Jesus is the Standard for righteousness in all aspects- emotional, spiritual, and physical- So Asian people aren't rightous because they are not the same race as Jesus, and women aren't rightous because they don't have a *****? What is "physical rightousness"?

So, you believe that perfection is absolute purity because...why No, I belive all charicteristics are relative, therefore no perfection can exist.. even theoretically. I accept "absolute" as the closest symonym of "perfect" and therefore find some justtification in an argument that a "perfect" something is an "absolute" something. It depends on the context in which "perfect" is used...

"perfect anger", "perfect water", etc., describe situations where the direct object is undiluted. Therefore I do accept that one definition of "perfect" is fulfilled by such descriptions.

[Faith]

Yes, since I believe the Bible, I hold its definitions to be true. But, remember, righteousness is not "like Jesus". Jesus is righteousness.

My point there was that, in references to beings with souls, you cannot detach the three aspects. They are interconnected. Physical righteousness is obeying God's law with respect to the world around you.

We are talking humans in relation to their God. And in that context, there is an absolute. Jesus is the absolute standard. Everything is relative to Him. Get it? Jesus' righteousness means that He kept God's law. His physical body kept God's law, His spirit was in communion with God, and His mind was in submission to God. Anyway, we aren't going to agree on this because our basis for belief is on two different things. You are basing truth on your own reason and my basis for reality is Jesus, for He is TRUTH.

[JerryLove]

Physical righteousness is obeying God's law with respect to the world around you. Contradictory definition. God does not obey God's law (only God's whim) and therefore would not be rightous.

Jesus' righteousness means that He kept God's law. But he did not. He failed to stone the prostitute (God's law) and in-fact prevented others as well. He was born without a father (in violation of God's natural law), he spoke against divorce (God's law) and in-fact turned people away from the worship which God had commaned to new worship (certianly blasphemy of the highest order).

His mind was in submission to God. Oxymoron.

Anyway, we aren't going to agree on this because our basis for belief is on two different things. You are basing truth on your own reason and my basis for reality is Jesus, for He is TRUTH. I think yours is not even internally consistant.

[Faith]

I can answer all of these things you have called contradictions. But, I am gonna have to get back to you tonight or tomorrow. Until then... May God open your eyes and ears to His truth.

[Josh]

Personally, and with no offense to anyone else, I think this whole thread is a rather big waste of time. Think about it. We know our own mind. We know what we like and dislike. We know what we love and hate. We know what makes us happy or sad. We do NOT in any way though, know God's mind except from what He tells us (through the Bible or even just with talking to Him.) How can we ever hope to know why God does what He does? All I know to be true is that He created us. IF he was lonely, hee had the angels there, so there would be no need to create us. God being bored is kind of hard to comprehend. I *believe* that is NOT the reason he created us. I *think* He created us because that had been His plan from the beginning. I don't know why that was His plan. And I may never know why until Heaven. And even then, will it matter? God will create a new Heaven, and a new Earth, and I don't think there will be a need to answer questions. If we wanted, He most definitely would, I think. He only wants the best for us. And in Heaven I don't think it would be any different.
(note: I have a whole bunch of thoughts flying through my head so this whole thing might seem rather jumbled.)
As for what Donny said at the beginning, Heaven is not eternity just so that we can find out everything, get an answer to every question... if we wanted to know everything, I'm sure God could give it to us in an instant. Heaven is eternity so that we can live with our Creator forever... worshipping and loving Him, and Him loving us in return.
I have also seen throughout this thread many times that people are relating God to mankind to justify their opinions. We are made in His image, not Him in ours... He is not like us though. He is God, and we are His creation. Like I said before, there are things we will never know in our lifetime, and questions like the one in this thread are included in that.

There was probably more but I've forgotten by now... :) Sorry.

Josh