??? Christians = Egoists ???

[XabolitionistX]

I'm going to leave this question short and without stipulation because I think the natural path of this discussion will prove fruitful.

Are Christians Egoists?

It's just that simple.

Jason

[Chrysostom]

Generally speaking, yes in practice. They would not be were they following Jesus correctly.

[Benny Hicks]

Are Christians Egoists?
You'll have to excuse me, but I'm really confused as to what you're asking. Are you asking if Christians in general are egotistical or selfish?

If so, if Christians are seeking God with their whole heart and are loving their neighbors as themselves they should not become selfish. Christians should be God-centered, not self-centered.

Now, as to the way that they really are-that depends on the person. However, I think it would be hard to find someone who said that a "good" Christian will be egotistical.

Am I making any sense or am I missing the point? Sorry if I sound dumb, I apologize ahead of time ;)

Ben

[XabolitionistX]

To be an egoist, is to be a person who is ultimately out for the good of your own self interest.

Many Christians follow Christ because they want to go to Heaven. That makes them an egoist. I for example, want to go to Heaven, and in all honesty I admit that the idea of Heaven is a large incentive in many of my actions. That would make me an egoist because I am ultimately seeking gain for myself. On the surface it seems that I'm serving others and sacrificing myself but when you throw the reward of Heaven into the equation my actions could be viewed as being much more selfish.

Is egoism wrong? That's another debate. Feel free to consider it when you post.

Jason

[gymnast_girl_27]

this is very interesting... and a very good point- if there was nothing after death, would we still choose to follow Christ? hmmm... that is something to think about.

[Chrysostom]

Jason, i see where you are coming from.

A true Christian should follow just because Jesus called, not to "deserve" or "gain" anything. Yes, we should strive towards the goal, but we should obey simply because Jesus called.

Our Father has not called us to live a life taking His blessings for granted and living in selfish hedonism. The God who created the universe by a single word has commanded us to die today for Him. Will we accept? This, my friend, is the gospel: that Christ died to prevent our condemnation, and so must we die today and take up our respective crosses.

God be praised... i can feel Him rising up in me
john

[Revolution]

Prepare the stake - you may have to burn me for heresy! ;)

I couldn't care less if there wasn't a heaven.

Well, you haven't burned me yet, so I'll explain. I believe there is a heaven, and I look forward to going there, but ultimately I say it doesn't matter. Christianity has the power to make my life NOW much more fulfilling, and that counts for a lot. I honestly don't understand heaven - most of it is beyond comprehension by any of us, so to be a Christian for just the reason of getting to heaven would be very strange I think.

So in a nutshell, if someone is only a Christian to get to heaven, then that person is misinformed, as he/she'll not likely get there I fear.

[guitarman]

Prepare the stake - you may have to burn me for heresy!
I have never seen someone burned at the stake. I don't think you're a heretic, but can we burn you at the stake just for kicks? (j/k!)

I couldn't care less if there wasn't a heaven.
I care!! I can't wait to get there!! My life is so draining!! At times, the fact that I will one day be in heaven with God is the only encouragement that I have.

Well, you haven't burned me yet, so I'll explain. I believe there is a heaven, and I look forward to going there, but ultimately I say it doesn't matter. Christianity has the power to make my life NOW much more fulfilling, and that counts for a lot.
What is more important to you. Now or eternity?


I honestly don't understand heaven - most of it is beyond comprehension by any of us, so to be a Christian for just the reason of getting to heaven would be very strange I think.
Not necessarily. That is the reason that I became a Christian in the first place. I did not want to suffer the consequences of my past sins. Thus, I allowed Christ to be my savior. If you truly trust in Christ as you savior, then His Lordship automatically follows, however, I did not know this at the time :). Either way, it works out fine.

So in a nutshell, if someone is only a Christian to get to heaven, then that person is misinformed, as he/she'll not likely get there I fear.
Misinformed? Perhaps. Likelyhood of arrival there upon death? Why not? I will be there. :)

Aaron

[gymnast_girl_27]

well we can't take eternity out of the equation... if there wasn't anything after death, then what would be the point of Christ dying for our sins? however, if following Christ is JUST to get into heaven, then I think there is a problem there too- and I agree that God does make life SOOOOO much better now. =) my life was so empty before I had a relationship with Him. and I look forward to the day when I'll be able to worship Him at His feet! :D

[XabolitionistX]

"Christianity has the power to make my life NOW much more fulfilling, and that counts for a lot."

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not condemning you but the statement you made technically classifies you as an egoist. Whether it be the gift of Heaven, or the gift of a clear conscience. Either way, it benefits you. Once again, I'm not condemning you. I'm not even saying being an egoist is wrong... but that's the point of this post. I want to find out what you all think.

Jason

[raz]

You're making a very good point, Jason. Something I've been thinking of recently. This is ultimately a question of motives. For a long time I thought any selfish motive whatsoever in my life was evil, and needed to be 'pruned' away by God. But then I got to thinking about some of the things Jesus said; "Store up treasures in Heaven............", and the Parable of the Talents, ect., and I started realizing that God doesn't want us to be completely selfless, like a vegetable - that would be Bhuddism. We can still care about ourselves, but we ultimately must learn to put Him, and others, first. This ain't easy!, as any mature Christian knows. I think it takes a work on His part to complete.

[Benny Hicks]

To be an egoist, is to be a person who is ultimately out for the good of your own self interest.
Ok, gotcha. Key word there is ultimately, there we go. Very interesting, never thought too much about it in that light.
Many Christians follow Christ because they want to go to Heaven. That makes them an egoist.
Well, this may seem pointless but I figured I'd humor you all and post how my thought process went when I read this. At first I thought, "That's a horrible reason. That would make them no more faithful and just as naive as one who followed another religion because they wanted to go to Heaven." But realizing I'd built that thought on a presumption of their experiences I thought, "It depends on whether or not that person had any knowledge of other religions and Christianity; if that person merely accepted Christianity because it was the first to say it would solve their problems." Now, if this person knew of many religions but for whatever reason accepted Christianity as the truth, that would not make them a Christian.
Romans 10:9-10
If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

You must believe that Christ's crucifixion provided atonement for your sins to be a Christian. Now, you can believe that Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected, but until you acknowledge Jesus's sacrifice for you and confess that He is Lord you are not a Christian. Becoming a Christian isn't based on the acknowledgement of fact, it's based on the acceptance of faith that Christ's resurrection was enough.

Someone has to have a reason to have faith, humans don't lay down their pride for just any reason. There must some type of conviction, which is where the Holy Spirit comes in. If there is no conviction, it's all facts on paper that no Christian will stick to nor defend. So, one technically should be able to believe that Christ died and rose again and not be a Christian.

This raises the question: Why does it matter? Why should we believe in Jesus and His atonement for our sins? I believe that the answer can be seen two ways, and which you choose depends on if you're looking for what you get out of it or what God gets out of it.

If we searched for what we can get out of belief in Jesus and His atonement, we should believe because we want to go to Heaven. God loves us, He wants us to be with Him for eternity, and we definitely don't want to go to Hell. God loved us so much that He sent His son to die for us. This is looking at reasons for belief egotistically. Wow, we must be special, look how much God wants to be with us. We pretty much have God whipped. We screwed up, but He loved us so much that He made His son endure pain and death just for us.

While most of that is true to a certain extent, I think it is best to look at why God want us to believe. We know that we should do all things for God's glory, not our own. God is perfect, awesome, loving, caring, pure, everything good. By sending His Son, God allowed the earth to see how great He is. God loves Himself more than us, for if He didn't He would be committing idolatry. So, obviously He doesn't love us more than Himself. However, since God is loving, He wants a relationship with everyone. In order for Him to have a relationship with us, He had to send His Son for us. He wants us to realize how great He is. Out of our belief God gets another relationship, and another way to reveal Himself. God wants us to see how great He is, so we should believe. We don't deserve it, but God is merciful and willing to forgive. God is so great and has done so much for us, we should worship Him all of our days.

He made it even cooler though. Check it out, He made it so that if we believe, not only do we get to worship Him all of our days on earth, but once we die we get to spend the rest of eternity praising Him.

Well, there's my little rant for the day ;) I've gotta cut this short and go do some stuff, but I'll check back later if anyone has any questions about what I've said (I have a tendency to be a little hard to follow sometimes ;))

In Him,
Ben

[Bryan]

Originally posted by XabolitionistX
To be an egoist, is to be a person who is ultimately out for the good of your own self interest.

Well then if this is the definition of egoist we are going with, the <b>yes</b> I <b> am</b> an egoist. I do whatever I can that will bring ME the MOST satisfaction.

[Xkcer Man]

The true desire to go to Heaven should be to live in the presence of God. I don't see anything selfish about wanting to be with someone you love.

[Revolution]

Just a couple of points.

My life is fulfilling now, because I know I'm doing what God wants me to do. It feels great knowing that although I can do nothing of myself, God is using me to do His work.

Of course we cannot take heaven out of the equation. As the last message said, there is nothing selfish about wanting to be with the one you love. Love is by it's very nature a reciprocal thing - we only love God because He first loved us. He started it, we are responding - that isn't selfishness.

When I said that thing about being a Christian only to get to heaven, I meant it like this... Christ died for our sins. Whilst we are on this earth, we must still suffer the consequences of sin. If the reason one wanted to be in heaven was just to escape from the consequences of sin, he would be misinformed. I don't want to be in heaven to escape sin. The main reason is to live with Christ, every moment of every "day" - in other words for eternity. The absence of sin is not my primary reason for wanting to go to heaven. One cannot seek to escape the consequences of sin without having a very personal relationship with the One who makes it possible. There are, I fear, a great number of people in church who don't have that relationship, and maybe don't even want it - but want, or even expect, to get to heaven. They are wrong.

As Paul reminds us, we must keep our eyes fixed above. But we must take care also that we are not "so heavenly minded that we're no earthly good" (I don't remember who said it, but I believe it's very true).

Maybe that makes things clearer, maybe not. I hope it helped.

Guitarman, sure you can burn me, just for kicks. When's a good time for you? ;)

[gymnast_girl_27]

revolution....

well said.

[Bryan]

The reason why I am a Christian is becuase of the award that awaits me in heaven. (That and becuase God chose me.)

[Chrysostom]

Originally posted by bdan
I do whatever I can that will bring ME the MOST satisfaction.i'm sorry, friend, but i don't feel that this is proper. We are to take on the very nature of a servant, as did Jesus. We are to take up our cross each day and die to our own pitiful self-interest, serving God alone and furthering His plans first, foremost, and solely.

[Bryan]

<I>Originally posted by mustbenothing</I>
i'm sorry, friend, but i don't feel that this is proper. We are to take on the very nature of a servant, as did Jesus. We are to take up our cross each day and die to our own pitiful self-interest, serving God alone and furthering His plans first, foremost, and solely.

But you see mustbenothing, the thing that will bring the most joy is the hope we have in Christ. I have come to realize that the greatest joy to be found is in God, not in worldly desires.

[list=1]
The longing to be happy is an universal human experience, and it is good, not sinful.
We should never try to deny or resist our longing to be happy, as though it were a bad impulse. Instead we should seek to intensify this longing and nourish it with whatever will provide the deepest and most enduring satisfaction.
The deepest and most enduring happiness is found only in God. Not from God, but in God.
The happiness we find in God reaches its consummation when it is shared with others in the manifold ways of love.
To the extent we try to abandon the pursuit of our own pleasure, we fail to honor God and love people. Or, to put it positively: the pursuit of pleasure is a necessary part of all worship and virtue. That is,
[/list=1] <p align=center>The cheif end of man is to glorify God
BY
enjoying him forever.</P>

The best way to achieve joy as Christians is by "completing what was lacking in the afflictions of Christ." This is done by our own afflictions in giving the afflictions of Christ a personal representation. And in doing so, sharing the love of Christ and the joy to be found in him, we find the the peak of our own joy and satisfaction.

[Dice]

Bryan knows what he is talking about. It's not that we take Christ for granted, but that living for Him in total servanthood and denial of ourself IS our blessing. By dropping what I want I come to gain what I never knew I truly wanted. God calls us to let go of ourselves and to follow Him, through servanthood and love. Yet through doing this we gain all we ever wanted, because He is everything, He is our all, He is all we need and beyond. For this we rejoice and revel in Him, and there is nothing wrong with that because that is the heart that God is looking for, that is the heart that pushes us to a life of true love and servanthood in everything. Because in everything -whether at face value seeming good or bad- it is always good and we are always blessed, because our God is so good and we are thankful for all He does. Our lives and our hearts should be always giving yet always receving, it's somewhat confusing in that sense, but it's awesome, and it only happens through God.

I recommend reading the book Desiring God by John Piper.

[Bryan]

Let's not forget that God commands us to find joy in him. (Psalm 37:4)

[Chrysostom]

i sitll maintain that our first goal should be Christ, and our joy an inherent by-product thereof.

[Dice]

The way I see it is Christ is our joy, not separate from it.

[The__Freak_Show]

A true Christian is not egostical. There are times when we slip up and do something selfish, but we're only human and can't be perfect as God is. A Christian's goal is to do what Christ wants them to do. But even if there weren't a heaven, I would still follow Christ. Why? Well, because there's so much crap and hatred and so little love in the world that life would just be depressing and meaningless without Christ in my life. What everyone wants is to have this wonderful love that just feels so good and fulfilling, but what most people don't realize is that mankind cannot give such love and such peace. God and God alone gives us this love. Worshiping God feels so much better than anything else, do what God wants is often hard and painful, but the end result is awesome.
BUT(this is the best part), God loves us so much that he COULDN'T make us not go to heaven if we love Him back. No, we are not egostical. We just love God :D

[Chrysostom]

Originally posted by Mr McB
The way I see it is Christ is our joy, not separate from it.But why should one take the original leap of faith is the question. You cannot understand the joy until you are already saved.

[Bryan]

Originally posted by The__Freak_Show
A true Christian is not egostical. There are times when we slip up and do something selfish, but we're only human and can't be perfect as God is. A Christian's goal is to do what Christ wants them to do. But even if there weren't a heaven, I would still follow Christ. Why? Well, because there's so much crap and hatred and so little love in the world that life would just be depressing and meaningless without Christ in my life. What everyone wants is to have this wonderful love that just feels so good and fulfilling, but what most people don't realize is that mankind cannot give such love and such peace. God and God alone gives us this love. Worshiping God feels so much better than anything else, do what God wants is often hard and painful, but the end result is awesome.
BUT(this is the best part), God loves us so much that he COULDN'T make us not go to heaven if we love Him back. No, we are not egostical. We just love God :D


I love God becuase of the promise we have in him. There is nothing selfish about this.