If you know me, read this

[Jeffro-Wilson]

Hello Everyone. If you know me, you have seen how I participate in these debates, mostly over theology. Usually, i dont have enough time to post, or to make lengthy posts. I havent been here for the past few days, as I have been really wrestiling with an issue in my mind. I just wanted you guys to know that lately Ive been thinking about God and whether he even exists, and why we should trust the bible. I think that different religiongs should be given a fair chance to prove themselves, that what you believe should be based on logic, reasoning, and EVIDENCE. All I really want right now is some good solid evidence that God even exists, and that the bible is true, so I can stop worrying. Luke, buddy, If you get this one, please email me or something, you too travis. this is important. I jus realized that I didnt become a christian by being convinced that God exists, I just kinda accepted it. I skipped the first step !! I have no proof to look back on. And the rest of you people, " faith is evidence " wont work, because if there is no real proof, how do you know what to put your faith in ?

[calebb]

Hmm, you seem to have double posted. I don't want one copy of my reply getting deleted so I'll reply to this post as well ;)

Wow- those are some good questions Jeffro. I know alot of people who have gone through the same things. Maybe I can help give you some insight.

So first I should ask why you turned to Christianity. (since you said that you have recently been questioning the existance of God, I assume you at one time did believe in him) Did you realize how rotten a sinner you were and decide that you needed Jesus' blood to pay for the punishment of the sins you'd committed? Did you make Jesus the Lord of your life at that time?

So we all know John 3:16. ...that whosoever believes in Him should not perish.

The greek word for believe is more than just belief. Afterall, James 2:19 says "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!" So belief in God isn't going to save you!

Let me give you another example of this point. There was a guy named Blondin about 100 years ago. He tight-roped across Niagra falls. The bystanders were always amazed. One day he asked if they believed he could carry someone across on his back. They all agreed. When he asked them if any would ride on his back though, none of them would. They all believed he could, but none would put their faith in Him.

So those analogies were to show you what faith is. When you said you 'just kinda accepted it' you did not put your faith in Jesus.

Now, alot of people say 'convince me that Jesus/Christianity/etc is real!' But what does the Bible say? Jeremiah 29:13 says "And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart."

So that puts the responsibility on you to seek out God, not the other way around.

Analogies are always good. Here's another. God is like the Sun. The Sun lights our path, it feeds the algae which is the bottom of the food chain, it gives us energy, heat, etc. Yet how do we know it is there? We can look at it but it just blinds us. We know its there by what it has done to our environment around us. We know God exists by what he does for us.

Hebrews 11:1 says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

So even the Bible confirms that faith has evidence!

Now, I'll mention some other religions... Hinduism, Buddaism, Voodoo, and several others. What do they have in common and how do they all differ from Christianity? They all require you to earn your way to 'heaven,' 'nirvana,' or whatever. Christianity is the only religion that teaches we had a Savior that came to die for our sins, that if we put our faith in Him, He will change our lives.

In any case, it is clear to me that you believe there is something out there besides us just randomly being evolved out of nothingness. I challenge you to read the Bible - start with John - and seek out God with all your heart that he might reveal Himself to you. If you truly seek after Him, I promise that He will reveal Himself to you!!

God bless,
-Caleb

[Travis]

Originally posted by Jeffro-Wilson
I think that different religiongs should be given a fair chance to prove themselves, that what you believe should be based on logic, reasoning, and EVIDENCE.

Been there man. I am about to have to go to class and this will take a while. I will try to give you an answer by this afternoon.

Originally posted by Jeffro-Wilson
All I really want right now is some good solid evidence that God even exists, and that the bible is true, so I can stop worrying.

I'll try my best to show you what helped me to see this, and don't worry, I won't tell you that faith is evidence :) Philospopher would also have a lot of helpful things to say here. I will email you by this afternoon.

[Dice]

These guys will bring a lot to your attention, but I would like to mention that after all reason and logic, when it comes to God's existence or not, nothing can be truly proven in words. And faith really IS your evidence. If this were not the case, well then we wouldn't have to believe by faith and we could simply prove God in words to everyone in the world so they'd believe. Surely after Salvation God moves in ways to assure us, but initial Salvation will always be made by fatih.

As for why Christianity is true over other religions, thats much easier and can be proven. Christianity is simply WAAAY more solid than any other religion. These guys will be able to help you on this.

You did right in posting this, the bible says if you seek wisdom to seek God about it. I think that means in the word and in the church. Some people just look to themselves (which doesnt make sense, if you dont have the answers why look to yourself for them?) and fall away from the faith. But by sticking through this time of testing and asking your brothers you'll come out with a stronger faith.

I could say some things, but I'm still working on learning how to communicate my worldview to others. And going to College will be a big part of that. So I'll leave the job for those who can do it better, but I'll be prayer for you as the ultimate teacher is the Holy Spirit.

[da_OKUM?]

All that has been said here is very valid, and about the Sun analogy, I never really thought of it that way. That's awesome!

But Nicodemus, one of the High Preists (the clergy, maybe similar to a pastor) had similar questions. He knew that Jesus was something special, but when Jesus explained that you miust be born again, he (Nicodemus) got a little confused. Jesus responded to this by bringing up this analogy

John 3:8 (NIV)
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going, So it is with everyone born of the spirit.

So, you see, while we cannot physically see God (if we did, we'd probably die because of the sheer awesomeness of Him), we can see the effects of His work.

That's my $.02. Hope it helps!

[Karen M]

Hello all :)

I have already posted a response on the other one,however, I think I should address one thing on here:

>>>As for why Christianity is true over other religions, thats much easier and can be proven. Christianity is simply WAAAY more solid than any other religion.<<<

No it isn't; thats the point of the questions in the first place. Though I don't adhere to any relgions myself, I feel that simply bashing away all other beliefs with this sweeping generalization is not only rediculous, but unfounded. Just because people believe differently than you, it does not mean that their beliefs are somehow less solidly based then your own.


Thanks,

Karen

[JerryLove]

Jwffro,

Are you looking to be convinced (in which case I will stay out) or are you looking for an honest discussion (in which case I need to correct some errors by other posters)?

[Nate]

Hey Jeffro, these are a bunch of really good questions. I am not qualified to prove God's existence.... so I will not even try. I'm just going to do exactly what you asked not to do...... say that "faith is evidence." :D

Christianity is based on faith. You cannot deny that. We are saved by faith (Eph. 2:8), we are justified by faith (Rom. 5:1), we are healed by faith. (Mark 10:52, Luke 8:48) Basically every part of the Christian religion is based on faith.

Please do not throw faith aside in your search for logic, reason, and evidence. If we could prove God scientifically, there would be no reason to have faith. If we could see God with our eyes, there would be no need for faith. It is my belief that God cannot be proved without there being some sort of faith involved. Eventually, you're going to get to the point where you must either choose to say "I can't believe that. I just can't place my trust in what I cannot see" or "I know I can't prove this, but I know I must accept it by faith"

Please read these passages and consider them.......


Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Notice that it does not say "Because anyone who comes to Him must have proof that He exists"....... faith is VITAL to Christianity. Soo... is it a blind faith??

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Romans 8:24
For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?

Faith is being sure of what we hope for. Our hope, as Christians, is the gift of eternal life that God has given to us. We cannot see it, we cannot prove it... but that is not how we received it. We received this gift through faith.... we should not now try to prove it. Doing so would basically make our hope and our faith worthless. Hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has??

Soo... is Christianity a "blind faith"???? I believe so. It could also be called foolish and weak. Read on....

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19
For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
20
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
22
Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
23
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
24
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25
For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

The gospel of Christ is foolishness (to the world)!!!!!!!! It cannot be understood through worldly wisdom, intelligence, or philosophy. It must be accepted by faith. Read verse 21 again, "...to save those who believe." Not those who understand, those who can prove it, those who are wise, etc, etc. All the wisdom, logic, reasoning, evidence, and proof that man can muster is worthless to God. It is faith that saves. "By faith we understand... " (Hebrews 11:3)

Ok, just so you don't think I'm leaving you with nothing but a blind faith...... read these passages as well.

Psalm 19:1
The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--His eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Creation itself shows the work of a creator. The old analogy goes like this:

When you look at a painting, you know there had to be a painter. The paint didn't just fly out of the tubes and onto the canvas in a pleasing pattern. Someone had to put it there. In the same way, when you look at a building, you know there had to be a builder. The wood and the steel that made it didn't just up and decide to become a building. Somebody had to work to make them stand together and become a building. Look at the world around you.... can you honestly say that there is no creator???? Did the elements themselves just decide to become trees, and rocks, and sky, and water????? Even things that move and breathe on their own??? Things that can think for themselves??? All these things had to come from somewhere. So the question is..... from where??? God!


BUT..... I want you to see something. I quoted verse 20 from Romans chapter 1. I'd like you to look at some of the verses surrounding that one verse....

Romans 1:16
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."



The righteous will live by faith. The power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes. A righteousness that is by faith.

Even in the midst of explaining how creation shows God's mighty hand..... Paul does not deny faith. Please, I urge you to do the same. Don't forget that Christianity is based on faith.

Anyway, I hope this helps.

[Jeffro-Wilson]

I noticed the errors myself Jerry. Dont worry about posting, I think I will be able to play the opposite end on this one. I am not looking for another appeasement. I want to know what reason I have to believe the bible and not believe the koran, to believe in Jehovah and not Allah, or to believe in any of them at all. What besides just wanting to believe in something, would cause me to believe in them ? where is the evidence ? if faith is the evidence, I could have faith in Allah, but that wouldnt make it true, why shouldnt I have faith in Allah ?

[Nate]

Originally posted by Jeffro-Wilson
I could have faith in Allah, but that wouldnt make it true, why shouldnt I have faith in Allah ?

You seem to be admitting that Allah is not the only true God..... can you say the same for Jehovah???? (Just curious... as I'm detecting a little *gasp* faith ;) )

[Jeffro-Wilson]

all i am saying is that faith is not evidence, because if it were, having fait hin something would be able to prove it, meaning that every religion would have merit, and creating a LOT of contradictions. By the way everyone, I have come to a conclusion, God does exist, as he is described in the bible. Im still working on finding evidence of the validity of most of the old testament, if anyone wants to try to help me. Pray for me !