View Full Version : how many OT prophesies about Jesus?
Paid In Full
11-12-2001, 10:09 PM
Can anyone tell me where I could find a list of all the OT prophesies? I want to know how many there were, and where in scripture. I'm assuming that Jesus fulfilled them all. Thanks a bunch.
in Him,
Chris
guitarman
11-12-2001, 10:12 PM
Yeah. Over 330. You really want them all?
PM me if you want me to send you a list to get you started.
Aaron
Chrysostom
11-12-2001, 10:35 PM
i actually started a thread on this before, but nobody responded :(:( i would love if someone had a compiled list. i've been working at it, but OT prophecy is often hard to discern :) Anyways, any help would be great :)
Read Isaiah 52 and 53. That gives you the most organized list of them that there are. But read all the prophetic books (Isaiah to Malachi) to get nearly all of them.
guitarman
11-13-2001, 06:42 AM
Ok, I'll tell you what...I was just going to send him a list, but I'll post it when I get a chance... :). Sound good?
Aaron
guitarman
11-13-2001, 08:20 AM
{I found this on an internet site a while back. I saved in onto my drive, but can't remember the site. Anyhow, aparently it's from McDowell's Evidence That Demands a Verdict. I'm not sure how thorogh it is, but like I said, it's a start. I'll post more of it later.}
<HEAD><TITLE>Messianic Prophecies</TITLE></HEAD>
<H2>Messianic Prophecies</H2>
<BODY>
Bible references extracted from Evidence That Demands a Verdict - By Josh McDowell
<P>
<H3>*Born of the seed of a woman*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Genesis 3:15 </B>And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
<P>
<H4>Fulfillment</H4>
<B>Galatians 4:4 </B> But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
<P>
<B>Matthew 1:20 </B> But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
<P>
<H3>*Born of A Virgin*</H3>
<P>
<H4> Prophecy </H4>
<P>
<B>Isaiah 7:14 </B>Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
<P>
<H4>Fulfillment </H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 1:18 </B>Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. 24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
<P>
<B>Luke 1:26</B> And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
<P>
<H3>*Son of God*</H3>
<P>
<H4>Prophecy </H4>
<B>Psalms 2:7 </B> I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
<P>
<B>1 Chronicles 17:11 </B>And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever. 13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: 14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
<P>
<B>2 Samuel 7:12 </B>And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment </H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 3:17 </B>And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
<P>
<B>Matthew 16:16 </B>And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
<P>
<B>Mark 9:7 </B> And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
<P>
<B>Luke 9:35 </B>And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
<P>
<B>Luke 22:70 </B>Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
<P>
<B>Acts 13:30 </B>But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
<P>
<B>John 1:34 </B>And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
<P>
<B>John 1:49 </B>Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
guitarman
11-13-2001, 08:22 AM
Here's some that I came up with off the top of my head:
1) Born at Bethlehem (Micah 5:2)
2) Preceded by a messenger (Isaiah 40:3)
3) Entered Jerusalem on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9)
4) Betrayed by a friend (Psalm 41:9)
5) Sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zech. 11:12)
6) The silver subsequently thrown in God's house and used to buy the potter's field (Zech. 11:13)
7) He was silent before his accusers (Isaiah 53:7)
8) His hands and feet were pierced (Psalm 22:16)
9) His side was pierced (Zech. 12:10)
Aaron
Originally posted by guitarman
Yeah. Over 330. You really want them all?
PM me if you want me to send you a list to get you started.
Aaron Do you have a list of all of them? I would like to see them too...
This thread is a toss-up as to where it belongs, but since this is normally used in apologetics I figured I'd go ahead and send it there.
Paid In Full
11-13-2001, 05:50 PM
Sorry that I started this in the wrong place, but I really had no idea. I'm kinda new if anyone noticed. I got close though. Oh well.
Chris
JerryLove
11-13-2001, 07:54 PM
Just looking at some of the "prophecies" I really needed to comment.
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. OK, people will step on snakes and they will bruse our heel. How does this relate that he will be "born of the seed of a woman". And who exactly wasn't born from a woman?
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Many Bibles ceased using the word "virgin" to describe Mary. The greek word is best translated as "unmarried woman", or "maiden". Mary was quite married at Jesus' birth. Neither of your "fulfillment" cites indicate he was ever named "Immanuel"
As for the snake one... I am right with you Jerry... I don't like that one... I guess becuase I don't get it.
But the virgin one...
The proper translation is virgin. And what does Immanuel mean in Greek/Hebrew?
JerryLove
11-13-2001, 08:23 PM
Luke 1:27 uses "parqenoV" (parthenos) "a maiden; by implication, an unmarried daughter"
Luke 1:34 could be "I'm not married" or "I haven't had sex" or "I don't know a likely father".
Is there another cite you are thinking of? I miay be missing some.
MrCrabby
11-13-2001, 09:26 PM
OK, people will step on snakes and they will bruse our heel. How does this relate that he will be "born of the seed of a woman". And who exactly wasn't born from a woman?
This verse used the present happenings to prophecy what was to come.
The last part of the verse says: "he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."
This is directly talking about Satan and Jesus.
Satan would "strike Jesus' heel" by crucifying him.
But Jesus would have the last word and "crush his head" by raising from the dead, so that the world might be saved.
I agree that it is hard to understand.
The problem is, the Bible wasn't written in English.
English is a very literal language, Hebrew and Greek are not.
That is why alot of the Bible is hard to understand.
Mary was quite married at Jesus' birth.
Where do you find that?
That is quite wrong!
Mary was "pledged" to be married, she was engaged.
That's why they were so afraid. Back then, if an unmarried woman became pregnant--she could be killed.
And what does Immanuel mean in Greek/Hebrew?
Immanuel means "God with us."
Jesus is a variant of Joshua, which means "The Lord saves."
I fail to see how these two names fit together....maybe someone else could shed some light on this one....
JerryLove
11-14-2001, 07:46 AM
The last part of the verse says: "he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."
This is directly talking about Satan and Jesus. This seems like quite a stretch. I tend to find the more obvious answer likely.
Mary was "pledged" to be married, she was engaged. At the point she became pregnant yes. At the time she gave Birth, she was travelling with Joesph. I find it quite unlikely that she would be living with him unmarried to him. Can you support?
Mat 1:24-25 "When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."
This is also an interesting quote for those who claim that Mary died a virgin.
guitarman
11-14-2001, 02:02 PM
1 Cor. 2:14
"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Jerry, we have had a bit of a discussion about prophecy before. You don't accept the Bible as the inerrant word of God, thus, none of these prophecies should have any value to you. If you want to argue them, please start up another thread. These prophecies and fulfillments are in response to someone who accepts the Bible as the inerrant and infallible word of God.
OK, people will step on snakes and they will bruse our heel. How does this relate that he will be "born of the seed of a woman". And who exactly wasn't born from a woman?
As for the snake one... I am right with you Jerry... I don't like that one... I guess becuase I don't get it.
The prophecy was that someone from the line of the woman (Eve) would overcome the serpent (the devil). Jesus was from her lineage, and has overcome Satan. Satan will strike the heel of the seed - this means that Satan will try to temp Jesus. He will crush his head - this means that Satan will be overcome by Jesus.
Both aspects are true. The main point here is that the seed had come from the lineage of the woman. Gal. 4:4 says that the Son, made of a woman" was sent by God. This woman refers to Eve, not just Mary. Matt. 1:20 makes reference to the lineage (son of David), which shows that through the line of David (easily traced back to 'the woman'), the promise is fulfilled.
Aaron
JerryLove
11-14-2001, 02:13 PM
Jerry, we have had a bit of a discussion about prophecy before. You don't accept the Bible as the inerrant word of God, thus, none of these prophecies should have any value to you. The concept is called an "acedemic discussion". Weather I believe the Bible is inerrant or from God is rather immaterial to the question at hand, weather Jesus (as described in the Bible) fulfilled OT prophecy or not.
The prophecy was that someone from the line of the woman (Eve) would overcome the serpent (the devil). "Lines" travel down males (Jesus was a decendant of David). And you are actually forgetting that, in Gen 1:15, the enimity is between "your offspring and hers". That her decendants would crush the snakes decendants.
Jesus was from her lineage Along with every other person on the planet.
Gal. 4:4 says that the Son, made of a woman" was sent by God. This woman refers to Eve, not just Mary. While Galations does say that God sent his son, "born of a woman, born under law", I hardly see how this extends to Eve. And I hardly see the relevance since *all* people extend back to Eve.
guitarman
11-14-2001, 02:14 PM
Luke 1:27 uses "parqenoV" (parthenos) "a maiden; by implication, an unmarried daughter"
Luke 1:34 could be "I'm not married" or "I haven't had sex" or "I don't know a likely father".
Luke 1:34 "Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?"
It was worded this way for a reason. Because that is what the implications of the Greek text says. The translators of the Bible are some of the most competent Greek/Hebrew scholars around. I highly doubt that some undergrad college kid is going to prove them wrong. I have heard this argument several times. The fact is this:
OT - prophecy that the messiah will come from a virgin.
NT- Jesus is born of a virgin.
It is what the Christian religion teaches. If you are going to argue otherwise, then go argue with someone else, because you are not going to convince us otherwise.
Jerry, I have a lot of respect for you. Please don't stop seeking truth. But this thread is not the place to argue about prophecy.
Aaron
guitarman
11-14-2001, 02:15 PM
*Politely* Jerry, I'm not going to discuss this with you now.
Aaron
JerryLove
11-14-2001, 02:19 PM
"But this thread is not the place to argue about prophecy. "
Then I'm really missing something. I thought the purpose of this thread was to identify OT prophecys about Jesus. Weather or not Jesus meets a proscribed prophecy would seem quite intregal to that goal.
guitarman
11-14-2001, 02:22 PM
<H3>*Seed of Abraham*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Genesis 22:18 </B>And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
<P>
<B>Genesis 12:2 </B>And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Galatians 3:16 </B>Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
<P>
<B>Matthew 1:1 </B> The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
<P>
<H3>*Son of Isaac*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Genesis 21:12 </B>And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Luke 3:23 </B>And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
<P>
<B>Luke 3:34 </B> Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
<P>
<B>Matthew 1:1</B> The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. 2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
<P>
<H3>*Son of Jacob*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Numbers 24:17 </B>I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.
<P>
<B>Genesis 35:10 </B>And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Luke 3:23 </B>And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
<P>
<B>Luke 3:34 </B>Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
<P>
<B>Matthew 1:2 </B> Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
<P>
<B>Luke 1:33 </B>And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
<P>
<H3>*Of the Tribe of Judah*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Genesis 49:10 </B>The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
<P>
<B>Micah 5:2 </B> But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Luke 2:23 </B>(As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord)
<P>
<B>Luke 2:33 </B>And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
<P>
<B>Hebrews 7:14 </B>For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
<P>
<H3>*Family LIne of Jesse*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Isaiah 11:1 </B>And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
<P>
<B>Isaiah 11:10 </B>And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Luke 3:23 </B>And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
<P>
<B>Luke 3:32 </B>Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
<P>
<B>Matthew 1:6 </B> And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
<P>
<P>
<P>
<P>
<P>
guitarman
11-14-2001, 02:26 PM
Then I'm really missing something. I thought the purpose of this thread was to identify OT prophecys about Jesus. Weather or not Jesus meets a proscribed prophecy would seem quite intregal to that goal.
These are prophecies that are generally accepted by Orthodox Christianity. It is assumed, since these prophecies are accepted by Orthodox Christianity, that these prophecies are fulfilled. If we don't see it right away, then we need to dig deeper. Then you will find it. Orthodoxy does not accept anything on a whim. Thus, it has been shown time and time again that these prophecies are accurate.
If you want to discuss them, then why don't we start a thread called, "Accuracy of OT prophecies about Jesus"? I'd possibley be up for discussing things there :).
Aaron
guitarman
11-14-2001, 02:29 PM
<H3>*House of David*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Jeremiah 23:5 </B>Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
<P>
<B>2 Samuel 7:12 </B>And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
<P>
<B>Psalms 132:11 </B>The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 1:1 </B> The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
<P>
<B>Matthew 9:27 </B>And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou son of David, have mercy on us.
<P>
<B>Matthew 15:22 </B>And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
<P>
<B>Matthew 20:30 </B>And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by, cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David.
31 And the multitude rebuked them, because they should hold their peace: but they cried the more, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David.
<P>
<B>Matthew 21:9 </B>And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
<P>
<B>Matthew 21:15 </B>And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased,
<P>
<B>Matthew 22:41 </B>While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
<P>
<B>Mark 9:10 </B>And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
<P>
<B>Mark 10:47 </B>And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me.
48 And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried the more a great deal, Thou son of David, have mercy on me.
<P>
<B>Luke 18:38 </B>And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me.
39 And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou son of David, have mercy on me.
<P>
<B>Acts 13:22 </B>And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
<P>
<B>Revelation 22:16 </B>I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
<P>
<H3>*Born at Bethlehem*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Micah 5:2 </B> But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 2:1 </B> Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
<P>
<B>John 7:42 </B>Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
<P>
<B>Matthew 2:4 </B> And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
<P>
<B>Luke 2:4 </B> And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David)
5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
Chrysostom
11-14-2001, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by JerryLove
This seems like quite a stretch. I tend to find the more obvious answer likely.
At the point she became pregnant yes. At the time she gave Birth, she was travelling with Joesph. I find it quite unlikely that she would be living with him unmarried to him. Can you support?i agree with Jerry on this. There is really no way that it's a prophecy about Jesus. The only reason i think it was ever brought up is to get stretched Biblical support for a Mary\Eve parallel
guitarman
11-14-2001, 02:35 PM
<H3>*Presented with Gifts*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 72:10 </B>The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
<P>
<B>Isaiah 60:6 </B>The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 2:1 </B> Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
<P>
<B>Matthew 2:11 </B>And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
<P>
<H3>*Herod Kills Children*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Jeremiah 31:15 </B>Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 2:16 </B>Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he h
ad diligently enquired of the wise men.
<P>
<H3>*He Shall be called Lord*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 110:1 </B>The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
<P>
<B>Jeremiah 23:6 </B>In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
<P>
<B>Luke 2:11 </B>For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
<P>
<B>Matthew 22:43 </B>He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
<P>
<H3>*Shall be Immanuel-God with us*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Isaiah 7:14 </B>Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 1:23 </B>Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
<P>
<B>Luke 7:16 </B>And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
<P>
<H3>*Shall be a prophet*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Deuteronomy 18:18 </B>I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
<P>
<H4>Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 21:11 </B>And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
<P>
<B>Luke 7:16 </B>And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
<P>
<B>John 4:19 </B>The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
<P>
<B>John 6:14 </B>Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
<P>
<B>John 7:40 </B>Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
<P>
<H3>*Shall be a priest*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 110:4 </B>The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Hebrews 3:1 </B> Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
<P>
<B>Hebrews 5:5 </B> So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
<P>
<H3>*Shall be a Judge*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Isaiah 33:22 </B>For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>John 5:30 </B>I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
<P>
<B>2 Timothy 4:1 </B> I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
<P>
<H3>*Shall be a king*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 2:6 </B> Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
<P>
<B>Zechariah 9:9 </B> Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
<P>
<B>Jeremiah 23:5 </B>Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 27:37 </B>And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
<P>
<B>Matthew 21:5 </B>Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
<P>
<B>John 18:33 </B>Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews?
34 Jesus answered him, Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?
35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth
heareth my voice.
38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.
<P>
<H3>*Annointed with the Holy Spirit*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Isaiah 11:2 </B>And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
<P>
<B>Psalms 45:7 </B>Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
<P>
<B>Isaiah 42:1 </B>Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
<P>
<B>Isaiah 61:1 </B>The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are
bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 3:16 </B>And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
<P>
<B>Matthew 12:17 </B>That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
<P>
<B>Mark 1:10 </B>And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
<P>
<B>Luke 4:15 </B>And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them
that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
<P>
<B>Luke 4:43 </B>And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.
<P>
<B>John 1:32 </B>And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
guitarman
11-14-2001, 02:40 PM
At the point she became pregnant yes. At the time she gave Birth, she was travelling with Joesph. I find it quite unlikely that she would be living with him unmarried to him. Can you support?
You are correct and you just answered your question about whether the word meant "unmarried maiden" or "virgin." If she was married when Jesus was born, then aparently, it meant virgin.
Aaron
guitarman
11-14-2001, 02:42 PM
Also, I will repeat myself...
These are prophecies that are generally accepted by Orthodox Christianity. It is assumed, since these prophecies are accepted by Orthodox Christianity, that these prophecies are fulfilled. If we don't see it right away, then we need to dig deeper. Then you will find it. Orthodoxy does not accept anything on a whim. Thus, it has been shown time and time again that these prophecies are accurate.
The seed of the woman is understood to be Jesus. The serpent is understood to be Satan. If you can find a commentary on Genesis or some reliable source that says otherwise (that says otherwise: no arguments from silence), then you have a point.
Again, if you want to discuss, please start a new thread.
Aaron
guitarman
11-14-2001, 02:43 PM
I have posted about half of the prophecies on the list. I will post more later.
Aaron
guitarman
11-14-2001, 02:51 PM
And you are actually forgetting that, in Gen 1:15, the enimity is between "your offspring and hers". That her decendants would crush the snakes decendants.
Genesis 3:15
"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."
1 John 3:10 "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother"
Correct, enmity is between the children of God and the children of the devil.
"he will crush your head." - "He" refers to Jesus and the head belongs to Satan. It is Jesus who overcomes, not the descendents, and it is Satan who is defeated, not his descendents.
Aaron
guitarman
11-14-2001, 02:57 PM
By the way, guys, when I said I was not going to discuss these things, I meant that I wasn't going to argue them. If you (including Jerry :)) have questions and you want me to clarify or explain something, let me know. I just don't want to get into debates like "Is the Jesus really the seed?" or "was Mary really a virgin?" Questions like fill asked on the other page are great!
Aaron
MrCrabby
11-14-2001, 09:45 PM
At the point she became pregnant yes. At the time she gave Birth, she was travelling with Joesph. I find it quite unlikely that she would be living with him unmarried to him.
Okay, my misunderstanding. Sorry.
When she concieved Jesus, she was unmarried.
When Jesus was born, (as you say), she was married.
This is also an interesting quote for those who claim that Mary died a virgin.
Who claims that?
guitarman
11-15-2001, 04:04 PM
<H3>*Has a zeal for God*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 69:9 </B>For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>John 2:15 </B>And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
<P>
<H3>Preceded by Messenger</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Isaiah 40:3 </B>The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
<P>
<B>Malachi 3:1 </B> Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 3:1</B> In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
<P>
<B>Matthew 3:2 </B> And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
<P>
<B>Matthew 11:10 </B>For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
<P>
<B>John 1:23 </B>He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
<P>
<B>Luke 1:17 </B>And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
<P>
<H3>*Ministry to Begin in Galilee*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Isaiah 9:1 </B> Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 4:12 </B>Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee;
13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim:
14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
<P>
<H3>*Ministry of Miracles*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Isaiah 35:5 </B>Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.
<P>
<B>Isaiah 32:3 </B>And the eyes of them that see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken.
4 The heart also of the rash shall understand knowledge, and the tongue of the stammerers shall be ready to speak plainly.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 9:35 </B>And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
<P>
<B>Matthew 9:32 </B>As they went out, behold, they brought to him a dumb man possessed with a devil.
33 And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.
<P>
<B>Matthew 11:4 </B>Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
<P>
<B>Mark 7:33 </B>And he took him aside from the multitude, and put his fingers into his ears, and he spit, and touched his tongue;
34 And looking up to heaven, he sighed, and saith unto him, Ephphatha, that is, Be opened.
35 And straightway his ears were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed, and he spake plain.
<P>
<B>John 5:5 </B> And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
<P>
<B>John 9:6 </B> When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
7 And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.
8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged?
9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
10 Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened?
11 He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight.
<P>
<B>John 11:43 </B>And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
<P>
<H3>*Teacher of Parables*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 78:2 </B>I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 13:34 </B>All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
<P>
<H3>*Was to Enter the Temple*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Malachi 3:1 </B> Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 21:12</B>And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
<P>
<H3>*He was to enter Jerusalem on a Donkey*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Zechariah 9:9 </B> Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Luke 19:35 </B>And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.
36 And as he went, they spread their clothes in the way.
37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;
<P>
<B>Matthew 21:6 </B>And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them,
7 And brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their clothes, and they set him thereon.
8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way.
9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
10 And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?
11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
guitarman
11-15-2001, 04:07 PM
<H3>*Stone of Stumbling to Jews*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 118:22 </B>The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
<P>
<B>Isaiah 8:14 </B>And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
<P>
<B>Isaiah 28:16 </B>Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>1 Peter 2:7 </B> Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
<P>
<B>Romans 9:32 </B>Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
<P>
<H3>*A Light to Gentiles*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Isaiah 60:3 </B>And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
<P>
<B>Isaiah 49:6 </B>And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of
the earth.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Acts 13:47 </B>For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
<P>
<B>Acts 26:23 </B>That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
<P>
<B>Acts 28:28 </B>Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
<P>
<H3>*Ressurection*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 16:10 </B>For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
<P>
<B>Psalms 30:3 </B>O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
<P>
<B>Psalms 41:10 </B>But thou, O LORD, be merciful unto me, and raise me up, that I may requite them.
<P>
<B>Psalms 118:17 </B>I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.
<P>
<B>Hosea 6:2 </B> After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Acts 2:31 </B>He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
<P>
<B>Acts 13:33 </B>God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
<P>
<B>Luke 24:46 </B>And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
<P>
<B>Mark 16:6 </B>And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
<P>
<B>Matthew 28:6 </B>He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
guitarman
11-15-2001, 04:11 PM
<H3>*Ascension*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 68:18 </B>Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Acts 1:9 </B> And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
<P>
<H3>*Seated at Right hand of God*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 110:1 </B>The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Hebrews 1:3 </B> Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
<P>
<B>Mark 16:19 </B>So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
<P>
<B>Acts 2:34 </B>For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
<P>
<H3>*Betrayed by a Friend*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 41:9 </B>Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.
<P>
<B>Psalms 55:12 </B>For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:
13 But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance.
14 We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 10:4 </B>Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
<P>
<B>Matthew 26:49 </B>And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus and took him.
<P>
<B>John 13:21 </B>When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
<P>
<H3>*Sold for thirty pieces of silver*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Zechariah 11:12 </B>And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 26:15 </B>And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
<P>
<B>Matthew 27:3 </B>Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders
<P>
<H3>*Money to be thrown in God's House*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Zechariah 11:13 </B>And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 27:5 </B>And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
<P>
<H3>*Price given for potters field*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Zechariah 11:13 </B>And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 27:7 </B>And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
Thanks for posting all those guitarman....
if you have more... keep em coming
oh yeah... did you get those off a website... if so, whats the address?
guitarman
11-15-2001, 04:20 PM
<H3>*Forsaken by his disciples*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Zechariah 13:7 </B>Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Mark 14:50 </B>And they all forsook him, and fled.
<P>
<B>Matthew 26:31 </B>Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
<P>
<B>Mark 14:27 </B>And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.
<P>
<H3>*Accused by False Witnesses*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 35:11 </B>False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge things that I knew not.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 26:59 </B>Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;
60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,
<P>
<H3>*Dumb Before his Accusers*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Isaiah 53:7 </B>He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 27:12 </B>And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.
<P>
<H3>*Wounded and Bruised*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Isaiah 53:5 </B>But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
<P>
<B>Zechariah 13:6 </B>And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 27:26 </B>Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.
<P>
<H3>*Smitten and Spit upon*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Isaiah 50:6 </B>I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.
<P>
<B>Micah 5:1 </B> Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 26:67 </B>Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,
<P>
<B>Luke 22:63 </B>And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him.
<P>
<H3>*Mocked*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 22:7 </B>All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 27:31 </B>And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.
<P>
<H3>*Fell under the cross*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 109:24 </B>My knees are weak through fasting; and my flesh faileth of fatness.
25 I became also a reproach unto them: when they looked upon me they shaked their heads.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>John 19:17 </B>And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
<P>
<B>Luke 23:26 </B>And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.
<P>
<B>Matthew 27:31 </B>And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.
32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.
guitarman
11-15-2001, 04:22 PM
oh yeah... did you get those off a website... if so, whats the address?
Well, I got them off of a website, but I saved the page to my hard disk. Then, I forgot to record the site address, so all I have is the information on the page.
Aaron
guitarman
11-15-2001, 04:24 PM
<H3>*Hands and Feet Pierced*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 22:16 </B>For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
<P>
<B>Zechariah 12:10 </B>And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, an
d shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Luke 23:33 </B>And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
<P>
<B>John 20:25 </B>The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
<P>
<H3>*Cruicified with Thieves*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Isaiah 53:12 </B>Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 27:38 </B>Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.
<P>
<B>Mark 15:27 </B>And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.
<P>
<H3>*Made Intercession for his Persecutors*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Isaiah 53:12 </B>Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercess
ion for the transgressors.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Luke 23:34 </B>Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
<P>
<H3>*Rejected by his own people*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Isaiah 53:3 </B>He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
<P>
<B>Psalms 69:8 </B>I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children.
<P>
<B>Psalms 118:22 </B>The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>John 7:5 </B> For neither did his brethren believe in him.
<P>
<B>John 7:48 </B>Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?
<P>
<B>John 1:11 </B>He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
<P>
<B>Matthew 21:42 </B>Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
<P>
<H3>*Hated without a cause*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 69:4 </B>They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head: they that would destroy me, being mine enemies wrongfully, are mighty: then I restored that which I took not away.
<P>
<B>Isaiah 49:7 </B>Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>John 15:25 </B>But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
<P>
<H3>*Friends stood afar off*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 38:11 </B>My lovers and my friends stand aloof from my sore; and my kinsmen stand afar off.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Luke 23:49 </B>And all his acquaintance, and the women that followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things.
<P>
<B>Mark 15:40 </B>There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
<P>
<B>Matthew 27:55 </B>And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him:
56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children.
guitarman
11-15-2001, 04:27 PM
<P>
<H3>*People shook their heads*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 109:25 </B>I became also a reproach unto them: when they looked upon me they shaked their heads.
<P>
<B>Psalms 22:7 </B>All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 27:39 </B>And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,
<P>
<H3>*Stared upon*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 22:17 </B>I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Luke 23:35 </B>And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
<P>
<H3>*Garments parted and lots cast*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 22:18 </B>They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>John 19:23 </B>Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.
24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.
<P>
<H3>*To suffer thirst*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 69:21 </B>They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
<P>
<B>Psalms 22:15 </B>My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>John 19:28 </B>After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
<P>
<H3>*Gall and Vinegar offered him*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 69:21 </B>They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 27:34 </B>They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.
<P>
<B>John 19:28 </B>After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
<P>
<H3>*His forsaken cry*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 22:1 </B>My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 27:46 </B>And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
<P>
<H3>*Committed himself to God*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 31:5 </B>Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Luke 23:46 </B>And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
<P>
<H3>*Bones not broken*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 34:20 </B>He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>John 19:33 </B>But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
<P>
<H3>*Heart Broken*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Psalms 22:14 </B>I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>John 19:34 </B>But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
<P>
<H3>*His Side Peirced*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Zechariah 12:10 </B>And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, an
d shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>John 19:34 </B>But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
<P>
<H3>*Darkness over the land*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Amos 8:9 </B> And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 27:45 </B>Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
<P>
<H3>*Buried in rich man's tomb*</H3>
<H4> Prophecy</H4>
<P>
<B>Isaiah 53:9 </B>And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
<P>
<H4> Fulfillment</H4>
<P>
<B>Matthew 27:57 </B>When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:
58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.
59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.d to bear his cross.
guitarman
11-15-2001, 04:31 PM
K, there ye go folks :).
Now, here's the deal. Like I said, I got these off of a webpage, but I can't remember what the address of the page is. Anyhow, some of the prophecies may seem really vague and really odd. Take that up with Josh McDowell :).
However, feel free to discuss, clarify, ask questions about any of this. Some of the titles for the prophecies seem kind of odd, but I just listed them as McDowell had done. Perhaps renaming some of them might fit your fancy; go for it!
If you don't understand how any of them were fulfilled in Jesus, or you don't understand the prophecy, then ask!! I'll do my best to answer :).
Aaron
mesabooger
11-22-2001, 02:06 AM
An awsome book to get for this topic among other things is The New Evidence by Josh Mcdowell. He breaks down about 60 prophecies fullfilled of those 300.
Acquinas
11-23-2001, 04:59 PM
I have done a little research into this and thought i would add a few prophecies:
Psalm 22: the whole Psalm basically outlines Jesus' cruxifiction.
Isaiah 1:4 - the "holy one" will be forsaken
fullfilled: Matthew 16:13-14
Isaiah 11:1 - the line of Jesse will "bear fruit" (the messiah)
fullfilled: Matthew 1:25
Isaiah 18:7 - prophecy of the three kings
fullfilled: Matthew 2:1
Jeremiah 33:15 - Jesus will be of David's line
fullfilled: Matthew 1:6-16
Zechariah 11:12-13 - allusion to Judas selling Jesus for 30 coins that bought potter's field
fullfilled: Matthew 26-27
Isaish 42:2 - Jesus will not defend himself
fullfilled: Matthew 27:12-13
Hosea 6:2 - three day ressurection
fullfilled: Matthew 28:5-7
I have a list of a couple hundred. I'd be interested in comparing it with the lists provided by the rest of you.
guitarman
11-23-2001, 05:01 PM
I think I listed most, if not all, of those :). But that's ok....its confirmation.
Are you big into Aquinas?
Aaron
JerryLove
11-23-2001, 05:31 PM
I have to renew my objection. How can you have a discussion on what prophecies Jesus fulfills without a discussion on weather or not he actually fulfills them?
guitarman
11-23-2001, 06:30 PM
I have to renew my objection. How can you have a discussion on what prophecies Jesus fulfills without a discussion on weather or not he actually fulfills them?
Where would you like to start? :)
Aaron
Acquinas
11-24-2001, 04:09 PM
oops. yes, you did post most of these. I am new to this board, and I didn't realize that there were multiple pages. I am fairly into Aquinas, I just chose this name because he was the first apologist that i read, so had the most influence.
guitarman
11-25-2001, 10:04 PM
Jerry?
JerryLove
11-25-2001, 10:14 PM
Psalm 22: the whole Psalm basically outlines Jesus' cruxifiction. Let's look at some line and see if it sounds like Jesus (who is himself God)
"Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning?"
"O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent."
"In you our fathers put their trust; they trusted and you delivered them." (Who were Jesus' fathers again?)
"But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by men and despised by the people."
"I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me."
"I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me."
"They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing."
"Deliver my life from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs."
"Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save[4] me from the horns of the wild oxen. "
"I will declare your name to my brothers; in the congregation I will praise you."
Was Jesus saved? Was he starving to death? Would he feel he was a worm? Did he have any garments? Was he rescued from the lions? Did he (after this rescue) declare God's name to his brothers?
guitarman
11-26-2001, 12:01 AM
First of all, I never said that the entire Psalm is an exact outline of Jesus' crucifixion. It was originally written by David. Throughout David's life, especially early on, he was hunted and chased by his enemies. That is why many times his psalms sound so paraniod. In this psalm, the phrase "Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save[4] me from the horns of the wild oxen. " is quite likely a reference to a time when David was hiding in the wilderness and he was asking God for physical protection from wild beasts. Simple enough?
"In you our fathers put their trust; they trusted and you delivered them." (Who were Jesus' fathers again?)
This is a reference to the ancestors of David. Is it not true that his ancestors were delivered into the promised land from the king of egypt? I would not lump this in with the Messianic aspect of Psalm 22.
There are, however certain phrases of Psalm 22 that are Messianic prophecies.
**"But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by men and despised by the people."
Jesus was mocked and scorned by the people as he was being flogged and crucified.
**"I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me."
This one is quite interesting. It says that his bones are out of joing. When you study crucifixion, you find that the angle formed by the person's arm and their torso had to have caused so much tension that their shoulders would have been dislocated. I am not sure if this is considered a Messianic prophecy or not, but it would not surprise me if it fit the ticket :). I would say, judge for yourself (that is, if you're really curious whether or not this is a Messianic prophecy, check out some commentaries).
**"I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me."
People stared at Jesus and gloated over Him during his trial and execution.
**"They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing."
During his cruicifixion, they divided his garments and cast lots for them.
**"I will declare your name to my brothers; in the congregation I will praise you."
Jesus most certainly did this.
Now, for your quesitons:
Was Jesus saved?
Yes, He was resurrected and delivered from death.
Was he starving to death?
Not sure where you are drawing this from. Could you please clarify?
Would he feel he was a worm?
I suppose. David may very well have felt like a worm when the poem was written. (This is another one of those phrases that you may want to look into a little more.)
Did he have any garments?
Answered above :).
Was he rescued from the lions?
Also, answered above :).
Did he (after this rescue) declare God's name to his brothers?
Certainly :).
If I didn't answer anything to your satisfaction, just say so and I'll try again. Otherwise, keep 'em comin'!! :)
Aaron
JerryLove
11-26-2001, 12:28 AM
I did not mean to say that *you* said the entire Psalm was about the crucifictionm, just that it was said...
"Psalm 22: the whole Psalm basically outlines Jesus' cruxifiction. "
guitarman
11-26-2001, 03:01 PM
I did not mean to say that *you* said the entire Psalm was about the crucifictionm, just that it was said...
"Psalm 22: the whole Psalm basically outlines Jesus' cruxifiction. "
That's cool. I think I can give you the reason that whoever said that, said it. When you find a Messianic prophecy in scripture, it is usually a single verse, or a few verses mixed in with a lot of other things. The fact that this psalm has SO many references to the crucifixion compared to other psalms would lead one to make that statement. I don't think that they meant it literally :).
Anyhow, anything else?
Aaron
guitarman
12-12-2001, 04:05 PM
*bump*
Anymore questions? I'm curious :).
Aaron
Karen M
12-12-2001, 04:57 PM
Hello Aaron :D
This isn't really a prophacy, but I think it still worth a question. I havn't really read this thread, so tell me if this has already been brought up. I was just wondering what Jesus' last words were? :)
Matthew 27:45-54
"From noon on, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. And about three o'clock Jesus cried with a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" When some of the bystanders heard it, they said, "this man is calling for Elijah." At once one of them ran and got a sponge, filled it with sour wine, put it on a stick, and gave it to him to drink. But the others said, "Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him." Then Jesus cried again with a loud voice and breathed his last. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, and the rocks were split. The tombs also were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After his resurection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many. Now when the centurion and those with him, who were keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were terrified and said, "Truly this man was God's Son!"
Luke 23:44-47
"It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, while the sun's light failed; and the curtain of the temple was torn in two. Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit." Having said this, he breathed his last. When the centurion saw what had taken place, he praised God and said, "Certainly this man was innocent."
John 19:28-30
"After this, when Jesus knew that all was now finished, he said (in order to fulfill the scripture), "I am thirsty." A jar full of sour wine was standing there. So they put a sponge full of the wine on a branch of hyssop and held it to his mouth. When Jesus had recieved the wine, he said, "It is finnished." Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Was the curtian of the temple torn in two before or after Jesus died?
Did a bunch of saints rise from the dead and an earthquake occur once Jesus died or not?
Did he say "I am thirsty," to which people gave him the wine, or did he call for Elijah?
Where his last words "Father, into your hands I commend my spirt," "It is finnished," or just a great cry?
Did the centurion say "This man was God's Son!" or "Certainly, this man was innocent!"?
And, John 19:34
"Instead, one of the soldiers pierced his side witha spear, and at once blood and water came out."
I'm not an expert, but if a dead person had been dead for that long, don't you think his blood would have separated into plasma, platelets and other blood cells yet? Also, doesn't blood, once the heart has stopped pumpping, tend to collect at the person's feet and legs(if they are held up vertically for that long) because of gravity?
Just wondering :)
Karen
guitarman
12-12-2001, 05:28 PM
Hey Karen :).
I'm glad you brought up those questions!!
Here ye go...
Was the curtian of the temple torn in two before or after Jesus died?
Here's what the NASB and the NIV both say:
<p align=center>
"50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split."
(Matthew 27:50, 51) (NASB)
"50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split."
(Matthew 27:50, 51) (NASB)
<p align=left>
I would say that the curtain tore at the moment Jesus died.
Hey, just out of curiosity, did you ever learn the significance of this (I know you're not a Christian, but I don't know how much you know about Christianity, and that's why I'm asking :))?
Did a bunch of saints rise from the dead and an earthquake occur once Jesus died or not?
<p align=center>"52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many."
(Matthew 27:52, 53) (NASB)
<p align=left>
Yes, a bunch of tombs were opened when the earthquake happened. Three days later, when Jesus rose from the dead, so did a bunch of saints who went into the city to testify to Christ's resurrection. This is odd, and most people don't even catch it in there, but it's true :). Good eye!
Did he say "I am thirsty," to which people gave him the wine, or did he call for Elijah?
The Matthew account makes it appear this way. However, here is the chronology:
1) Jesus cries "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?"
2) Jesus cries "I am thirsty"
3) They give Him some wine on a sponge
Make sense?
Where his last words "Father, into your hands I commend my spirt," "It is finnished," or just a great cry?
Not sure. Perhaps He said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.....*pause*.......It is finished." That seems like it would work.
Did the centurion say "This man was God's Son!" or "Certainly, this man was innocent!"?
He probably said both. Jesus was crucified for blasphemy because He claimed to be God's Son. To the Jews, for anyone to claim to be Son of God is blasphemy. Now, if Jesus was indeed God's son, then He would have been innocent (because in calling himself God's Son, he would be telling the truth, not blaspheming). So it is quite likely that the centurion said both.
I hope all of that makes sense!! Lemme know if it doesn't :).
Aaron
guitarman
12-12-2001, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by Karen M
And, John 19:34
"Instead, one of the soldiers pierced his side witha spear, and at once blood and water came out."
I'm not an expert, but if a dead person had been dead for that long, don't you think his blood would have separated into plasma, platelets and other blood cells yet? Also, doesn't blood, once the heart has stopped pumpping, tend to collect at the person's feet and legs(if they are held up vertically for that long) because of gravity?
There is a medical explanation for this. If you would like me to look it up, I'd be glad to (I have before :)). I can't remember off the top of my head right now though.
Aaron
Karen M
12-13-2001, 12:05 AM
Hello again Aaron :)
>>>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Was the curtian of the temple torn in two before or after Jesus died?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's what the NASB and the NIV both say:
"50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split."
(Matthew 27:50, 51) (NASB)
"50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split."
(Matthew 27:50, 51) (NASB)
I would say that the curtain tore at the moment Jesus died.<<<
Yes, thats according to Matthew. The reason I posted all those different verses was because they seemed to be incoherent to one another; according to the New Revised version, Luke says:
"It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, while the sun's light failed; and the curtain of the temple was torn in two. Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit."
It sounds like it happened before Jesus died in this version.
>>>Hey, just out of curiosity, did you ever learn the significance of this (I know you're not a Christian, but I don't know how much you know about Christianity, and that's why I'm asking )?<<<
No, I'm ignorant. ;) I was just looking up what Jesus' last words were and I noticed that the curtain seemed to rip at different times. :)
What is the significance?
>>>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did a bunch of saints rise from the dead and an earthquake occur once Jesus died or not?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many."
(Matthew 27:52, 53) (NASB)<<<
Yes, I already typed that out in my last post. What I was refurring to was that this wasn't mentioned at all in either Luke or John. Don't you think it would have been slightly note-worthy? ;)
>>>Yes, a bunch of tombs were opened when the earthquake happened. Three days later, when Jesus rose from the dead, so did a bunch of saints who went into the city to testify to Christ's resurrection. This is odd, and most people don't even catch it in there, but it's true . Good eye!<<<
According to Matthew this did happen, yes. But I was questioning why the others didn't seem to notice it?
>>>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did he say "I am thirsty," to which people gave him the wine, or did he call for Elijah?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Matthew account makes it appear this way. However, here is the chronology:
1) Jesus cries "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?"
2) Jesus cries "I am thirsty"
3) They give Him some wine on a sponge
Make sense?<<<
Yes, but why don't any of the others take note of #1; and why doesn't Matthew take note of #2? Matt even says:
"Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" When some of the bystanders heard it, they said, "this man is calling for Elijah." AT ONCE one of them ran and got a sponge, filled it with sour wine, put it on a stick, and gave it to him to drink."(emphasis added)
It sounds like he said "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani" and then someone immediatly gave him something to drink.
>>>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where his last words "Father, into your hands I commend my spirt," "It is finnished," or just a great cry?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not sure. Perhaps He said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.....*pause*.......It is finished." That seems like it would work.<<<
You forgot the loud groan, but let me guess...: Loud cry, then "father, into your hands," then "it is finnished," right? ;)
I really think this is pushing it a bit. These were Jesus' LAST WORDS, don't you think they would have been worthy of note for that reason if for no other? Also, I will quote them again:
Matt: "Then Jesus cried again with a loud voice and breathed his last."
Sounds like he made a loud cry and just groaned and died here...
Luke: "Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit." Having said this, he breathed his last"
That sounds like he immediatly died after saying that.
John: "It is finnished." Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."
It also sounds like this was the last thing he said before dying, but they can't all be true...
>>>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did the centurion say "This man was God's Son!" or "Certainly, this man was innocent!"?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He probably said both. Jesus was crucified for blasphemy because He claimed to be God's Son. To the Jews, for anyone to claim to be Son of God is blasphemy. Now, if Jesus was indeed God's son, then He would have been innocent (because in calling himself God's Son, he would be telling the truth, not blaspheming). So it is quite likely that the centurion said both.<<<
Why wouldn't they have taken note of him saying both? I'll go with this one though, because its not talking about the last words of a holy messiah so maybe everything he said wasn't worth noting...:p On Jesus' last words, though, I think you need a bit more explination than that they just didn't feel like writing everything down..;)
Looking forward to your response,
Karen
Karen M
12-13-2001, 12:07 AM
>>>There is a medical explanation for this. If you would like me to look it up, I'd be glad to (I have before ). I can't remember off the top of my head right now though.<<<
Well, I would like an explination, if you can provide it, yes. :) If you can't find it, or it is too time consuming, I can probably just ask Luke though. :p
MrCrabby
12-13-2001, 11:57 AM
Karen:
John was the only writer actually there at the crucifixion.
So i would mostly go with him on those matters.
Chrysostom
12-13-2001, 03:24 PM
All four gospels are inerrant, and John's "version" is not right or wrong over other ones because they were all ultimately written by God ;)
Chrysostom
12-13-2001, 03:25 PM
As for prophecies, i say that Isaiah 53 is probably the best chapter for Jesus prophecies in the OT.
guitarman
12-13-2001, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Karen M
Yes, thats according to Matthew. The reason I posted all those different verses was because they seemed to be incoherent to one another; according to the New Revised version, Luke says:
"It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, while the sun's light failed; and the curtain of the temple was torn in two. Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit."
It sounds like it happened before Jesus died in this version.
"44 It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour,45 for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, 'Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.'' Having said this, He breathed His last." (Luke 23:44-17) (NASB)
From this version (very true to the original text), it appears that Luke records His death as happening at the sixth hour - the same time that the curtain tore.
If you ever have a question regarding the wording of a certain passage, your best bet is to go with the New American Standard Bible. It is the most literal translation. Other versions tend to stick in little phrases now and then and sometimes make it more confusing than helpful (as you have discovered :)).
Aaron
guitarman
12-13-2001, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by Karen M
No, I'm ignorant. I was just looking up what Jesus' last words were and I noticed that the curtain seemed to rip at different times.
What is the significance?
The significance is more in the fact that it ripped as opposed to when it ripped.
In the Old Testament, the Tabernacle where the Jews worshipped was divided up into different parts. The most inner part was called the "Holy of Holies." The Holy of Holies contained this thing that Jewish people call the "Shekinah Glory" which basically means Glory of God. Inside of the Holy of Holies was a layer of smoke, and this represented God's very presence (as God is spirit so we can't actually "see" His presence - He must reveal it some way so we can see it).
Anyhow, this part of the Tabernacle was off limits to everyone except the high priest. Once a year the high priest would enter the Holy of Holies and offer a sacrifice for the sins of the people. When Jesus died, he fulfilled the position of the ultimate high priest. He made the ultimate sacrifice. By doing this, he opened the way for us to approach God directly. In the Old Testament, one had to give sacrifices through a priest who was consecrated. Now, we can approach God with Christ as our Mediator. For more information, check out Hebrews 9 - it might be confusing, but it basically sums up what I just said (actually, all of Hebrews does :)).
Make sense?
Aaron
Karen M
12-13-2001, 04:12 PM
Hello All :)
GF:
>>>Karen:
John was the only writer actually there at the crucifixion.
So i would mostly go with him on those matters.<<<
I think Must answered this best: All four gospels are inerrant, and John's "version" is not right or wrong over other ones because they were all ultimately written by God.
Therefore, why do the contradict eachother? :)
Aaron, thank you for addressing the time at which the sheet ripped, but that was not the main contradiction I found and I would appreciate it if you could also address Jesus' last words and why his blood had not separated yet or even sunk to his legs and feet when he was punctured. :)
Thanks,
Karen
guitarman
12-13-2001, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Karen M
Yes, I already typed that out in my last post. What I was refurring to was that this wasn't mentioned at all in either Luke or John. Don't you think it would have been slightly note-worthy?
I think it would have been really note-worthy. And if not note-worthy, then just plain cool :D. But aparently this wasn't very important to the other gospel writers.
I don't know very much about why this happened. All I know is that when Jesus died and the was resurrected, He broke the power of death. When He broke this power, all of the saints came back to life testifying that God had indeed broken the power of death. This is a sign to us as well. We (Christians) know that when we die, it's not the end. There will be a resurrection; the resurrection of Jesus is called the firstfruits. It is called the firstfruits because that means there is more to come - the resurrection of His people. The resurrection of His people is prefigured by the resurrection of the saints.
And that's my best shot at why it happened. I have no idea as to why only Matthew mentions it :).
Aaron
guitarman
12-13-2001, 04:18 PM
I'm workin' on it :).....
guitarman
12-13-2001, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Karen M
According to Matthew this did happen, yes. But I was questioning why the others didn't seem to notice it?
Just because it's not recorded doesn't mean they didn't notice it. There are lots of stories that are only recorded in one or two gospels. Just compare some of Jesus' teachings in the different Gospels. Some include a ton of what Jesus said, others only include a small phrase (ususally the summary of Jesus' point).
Aaron
guitarman
12-13-2001, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by Karen M
You forgot the loud groan, but let me guess...: Loud cry, then "father, into your hands," then "it is finnished," right?
I would say that the loud groan was "It is finished." Luke didn't record this phrase. John recorded it as, "It is finished." Matthew recorded it as, "a loud cry."
And I gotta run for the moment. I'll say more when I get back tonight :).
Aaron
guitarman
12-13-2001, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Karen M
>>>There is a medical explanation for this. If you would like me to look it up, I'd be glad to (I have before ). I can't remember off the top of my head right now though.<<<
Well, I would like an explination, if you can provide it, yes. :) If you can't find it, or it is too time consuming, I can probably just ask Luke though. :p
Ok, here's an excerpt from a paper I wrote when I researched the topic. It has some scientific language in it, but I think you're smart enough to be able to get the point :).
From Death of Christ by Aaron Santavicca
Ironically, the last wound suffered by Jesus was from the executioner’s spear. The spear apparently went through the right lung and into the heart, so that when it was pulled out, both blood and water flowed. Before death, the hypovolemic shock would have resulted in the collection of fluid in the membrane around the heart, called the pericardial effusion, as well as around the membrane around the lungs, the pleural effusion. When the spear pierced the pericardial and pleural membranes, this fluid would have flowed, as well as the blood from the heart.
Hope that helps explain :).
I have a bunch of studying to do 'cause finals are coming up. I have answers for your questions and I'm going to get to them asap, but asap may not be for a day or two. (Just wanted to say that so you know that I'm not avoiding your questions - I hate it when people do that :).)
Aaron
Karen M
12-13-2001, 10:55 PM
Greetings again Aaron :D
>>>I think it would have been really note-worthy. And if not note-w